44-77 continuing development

[Kurt]

I shot the .40-65 today and it has a Douglas barrel and shallow grooves of .003" deep and I used a .395 diameter bullet patched with the yellow and it showed no signs of lead.

I spend a lot of time in the winter developing the alloy and I know how far the land cuts are on the bullet shanks, that was not the problem the other day.

Are you coming to the Q?

[Don McDowell]

Nope , maybe next year.

[Distant Thunder]

A while back I asked the question, "Is it the amount of powder or the amount of compression that is the key to an accurate load?".

When it comes to my .44 -77 I think I now have an answer. Both!

Over the past couple months I have tried various charge weights of Swiss 1 1/2 from 84 grains to 90 grains and different amounts of compression with these weights. I decided that the 86 grain load that I first tried late last year was the best with my straight bore diameter paper patch bullet, BACO 430520 opened up to .432". Today I took that bullet and the same 86 grains of 1 1/2 and loaded 3 each with zero compression, .050" compression, .100" compression and .150" compression. All but one of these loads formed a diagonal line with the 3 shots. None of this lines were long 2 1/2 to 3", but I would much prefer the tight little 1 1/4" triangle that .100" of compression gave me.

After shooting the 4 3-shots groups and seeing the results I decided to load 7 more with .100" compression, dial back the same sight setting I used for the first 3 and shoot 7 more on the same piece of paper and that would given me a 10-shot group. The elevation setting on my scope I thought had been .118" and when I checked it it was at .1185" so I dropped it the 1/4 minute. I shot number 4 on the attached target and it was low out of the group formed by the first three shots. I came back up the 1/4 minute and the remaining 6 shots were back at the original elevation. Either I didn't look at the setting very close or something had moved before I shot the first 3 shots, no matter I was good to go now.

The wind was coming in from 10 to 11 o'clock at 10 to 15 mph and I forgot to put my flags out so I was just watching the trees. That maybe didn't work as well as my flags would have and I had two shot that were a bit left. I figure they were shot in a bit softer wind. The main thing is I did not see any of the vertical stringing that were in the other compression amounts, 0, .050 & .150".

This rifle may not be shooting as good as some but it is shooting well enough to shoot some matches with it this summer and see how it does at longer ranges and that's exactly what I plan to do. The rifle and load seem to respond well to sight changes and except for the wind it isn't grouping too bad. The scope repeats with very good accuracy and I am pretty close to the end of my using iron sights now. Between no longer being able to read the number boards, my worsening astigmatism and now starting to develop cataracts I think the scope is going to be my best hope. I do like being able to see what I'm shooting at!

With my DZ mounts and the 30" barrel on this Shiloh I am able to shoot from 100 to 1000 yards with no trouble. I am looking right through the front sight at 1000 yards, but that didn't seem to hurt any when I tested it last fall. If it proves to be a problem down the road the sight is easy enough to remove.

My match schedule is all screwed up this year and I end up with no matches is June, but I will have 2 gong matches in July and 3 paper matches in August. I also hope to make it to one more paper match in September. All of these will be shot with my .44-77 and by the end of summer I should have a good idea of what the rifle and cartridge are capable of.

If all goes well I plan to hunt with this .44-77 for the early part of our Wisconsin deer season. The goal has been to prove just how versatile this old cartridge is, going from the target range to the hunting field with all that is needed to get the job done in style and shooting only paper patch bullets!

I am enjoying the journey!

[Don McDowell]

That's looking pretty good

[Distant Thunder]

Don,

Thanks! I will say that with my other rifles, .40-65, .45-70 and .45-90 once I reached the point where they were consistently shooting under 3 inches at 220 yards ant more improvement was slow and at times hard to judge. Shooting groups, not something I do well, inherently seems to have variables day to day. One day I'll shoot more than one group that will be much closer to 2Inches and on another the same rifle and load will be more in the 2 1/2 inch range. I suspect the shooter!

Really the only rifle I of mine I really believe can shot 1 moa groups day in and day out is my .40-65 and I think that is just because that cartridge is so easy to shoot well and not necessarily that the rifle is anymore accurate than the others.

Having had this .44-77 for just short of a year now I will say it is a different animal from the others I listed above, not to say it is any harder to get good accuracy from but that it is just different in some of the requirements to get there. Most notably the tolerance it has for seating depth. It actually seems to prefer to have the paper patch bullet seated deeper than the other 3 cartridges I've used for target work. I see that as a good thing because one thing the .44-77 does not lack is powder capacity and I could easily get 90 plus grains of Swiss 1 1/2 in the case with a shallowly seated PPB.

Actually other than the seating other than the seating depth I'm not doing anything different than I do with my other cartridges, same wad, same powder, same primer and same case prep. My case prep is just clean and reload. It just seems to like the bullets in the case somewhere around .200" +/-.

With the 86 grains I am getting 1315 fps which seems a little slow compared to my .45-70 and .45-90 with a PPB of the same weight, but it is fast enough for 1000 yard shooting and everything else really.

The other thing that I had to work a little hard at with this bottleneck case was the fouling, but my new bore pigs with 2 felts on them are so far handling the situation without a hitch. I have discovered that I am able to use the same pigs in my .44-77 that I made for my .45 calibers. If anything the little bit tighter fit in the .44 seems to help with the somewhat more fouling I get just in front of the chamber.

So I think I've gone about as far accuracy wise as I can with this bullet at 220 yards. Now all I can do is go to matches where I can shoot it at greater distances and see how it holds up. I also have to adjust to using a scope, which I love for gongs and silhouette, but I have been slow to warm to it for paper targets. Time will tell!

Now if I lived out west and knew somebody who had a 1000 yard range out their back door I'd be in business. I need to talk to my farmer type neighbors around me and see if they would allow me to use one of they're fields to shoot in. That would get me to 400 or maybe 500 yards. It's hard to get much more than around here with the trees and hills. By the time I lay down on my belly and put my rifle up on sticks I just can't see over the next rise! Finding a place that's open and has more than a few hundred yards between hills and is safe to shoot ain't easy in my area.

The rest of my development will be at matches, but I think I'm about ready for that step, finally.

[Don McDowell]

Lots of rounds down range, you and that rifle will get to know each other..

[Don McDowell]

You know, you're welcome out here any time Jim, but I got to tell you sometimes a feller gets all rompooned up about how well this or that is going to work, and you end up sitting there thinking , well do I go ahead and shoot these things, or go back to the house and try to rework em... LOL

[Distant Thunder]

That has happened often enough to me at matches! Sometimes about half way through the first relay I have realized that it ain't working like I thought it would. There have been a few times when I would run to the car, grab another load and start again. That is possible with unlimited sighters in a long range match.

I have also shot one load or bullet on the first day and then another on the second day of a match. That's just the way it is when all your long range testing and development is done at matches.

I have shot very nearly this exact load and bullet from 200 to 800 yards with only slight differences in the compression and C.O.A.L. and it has done well. The only thing that is really different now is that I have dialed in just how much compression the rifle seems to prefer with this lot of 1 1/2 Swiss. I believe the load and rifle will do well as is now. It may not be the perfect load and bullet for this rifle, if there is such a thing, but it's something I can work with. I really like how the shots go where I think they should and that there aren't any of those "Where the heck did that come from?" shots.

[Don McDowell]

I'm finding with this 1877 it likes less powder than my other 90's.
Think I have it, and this new bullet, about dialed in now. Hopefully I find out for sure at the midrange in Cheyenne. Then sometime between now and then I need to run this combo at 1000, before the first relay in Alliance the end of July.

[Distant Thunder]

My .45-90 Shiloh '74 was the rifle that got me off the ground shooting paper patch and I would go back to shooting it again for Creedmoor without hesitation if I didn't have other rifles begging me to to play with them. That was the rifle that turned everything around for me and it's standard chamber shot bore diameter PP bullets like it was made for them. I was loading 100 to 105 grains of Swiss 1 1/2 it it and that just seemed like a lot of powder to me.

My grease groove load, before paper patch, was only 85 grains and was a very effective Creedmoor load too. I still have that mold too and the only thing wrong with that bullet is that it has only 3 grease grooves and I really had to keep an eye out for leading.

I believe strongly that about 85 grains of Swiss 1 1/2 and a 520 grain bullet is just about optimal for 1000 yard shooting. Of course whatever powder gives 1300 to 1350 fps with whatever bullet a bit over 500 grains that shoots 1 1/2 MOA or better is the same formula and should be capable of winning any match provided the shooter & spotter are on their game.

There is more than one way to get there, I just use what works for me. Every rifle is it's own animal and in the end you have to feed it what it wants. Half the fun is figuring out what each rifle/cartridge wants to be fed.