Wisconsin Rapids mid-range match with my .44-77.

[beltfed]

tarbe,
YUP, I would Not want to live there now. Most all the old farms and fields and forests are
all in homes, Large multi's,etc . And the "small town/old world culture" of MKE area is
"all done" . Now it is just another crime ridden city.
Arnie

[Distant Thunder]

I spent the day working with my standard lot of 1 1/2 Swiss, #040313. Not a new lot to me just new to my .44-77. I have used 1 1/2 Swiss for most of my match shooting since 2003 and it has won a lot of matches for me. The first several years there was very little variation with it lot to lot, some but it never bothered. I have always gone by weight, never volume. Over time I had to increase the volume to account for the less dense newer lots in order to keep the same weight. In doing so I was actually increasing the compression out of the need to keep the same COAL with my then grease groove bullets. Accuracy was always great!

I followed this same method when I moved to paper patch bullets in 2008 and never had a problem.

Back my .44-77 and changing the lot of Swiss 1 1/2 in it. I loaded and shot 88, 89, 90, 91, 92 and 94 grains of lot #040313. Because I need to minimize the old guy, old eyes factor I have been doing all my development from the bench using a scope and that's what I did today.

I don't tend to note the amount of compression as much as I used to, but because it may be useful information in regard to the problems with Swiss powder in recent years.

The loads were as follows:

BACO 441505EPP 9# 100% cotton onionskin .002-.0022" thick
.060 LDPE wad
Swiss 1 1/2 lot #040313
JBA brass
Federal 215 LR primers
COAL 3.610"

Powder charges as follows:

88 grains did turn out to be zero compression. It shot a little better today with the scope on my rifle but 4 shots went into about 5" ctc. Not what I'm looking for.

89 grains had .030" compression and went into a nice triangular group 2 7/16" ctc.

90 grains had .065" compression and the first two shot were within 3/8" of each other but the 3rd shot dropped low and right about 4". I have no idea why it did that and I figured I would have to retest this load.

91 grains had .100" compression and went into a nice group at 2 1/8" ctc.
I shot 2 more 3-shot groups with this load and both measure right around 2 3/4".

92 grains had .135" compression and went into 1 3/4" ctc.
I retested this load with 3 more shots that went into 1 3/8" ctc. See attached photos.

       

I then jumped to 94 grains to get 3/16" compression and those 3 shots started to string vertically at about 3" ctc.

I decided that 92 grains looked pretty good. A composite of the two groups would have 6 shots in 2 1/2" ctc with only 1 1/4" vertical spread.

The groups starting looking good at 91 grains with .100" compression and continued through 92 grains with .135" compression. I would say that is about what I find as the usual with more recent lots of Swiss 1 1/2.

While this lot is a 2013 lot it has shot well in three of my rifles without any problems. In my .45-70 and my .40-65 I went from a 2005 lot to this 2013 lot and just stayed with the same charge weight. If anything I would say it shot a little better than the 2005 lot. I was a little less dense but I just used the same weight in each rifle and kept on shooting with good results, never missing a beat.

I'll load some more with 92 grains and see if it continues to repeat, I believe it will.

[beltfed]

Looking Good, Jim,
Looks better and better for you and that 44-77 for Lodi next month
Arnie

[Distant Thunder]

Thanks, Arnie.

Another thing I did, and forgot to mention, that helped improve accuracy is that I went to a tighter fitting jag. This has really helped clean the fouling out that is just in front of the chamber on this .44-77. I've got a good selection of jags that I've collected over the years to deal with variations in cleaning patches. Now the wiping stick pushes a little harder but the bore is much cleaner.

It seems I learn something new every day with this .44-77. It has been fun!

[Distant Thunder]

I started out this morning just hoping verify the two 3-shopt groups I shot the other day with some more shooting at 220 yards before I started loading for the up coming 1000 yard match at Lodi. The plan was to shoot a 5-shot group with 92 grains of Swiss 1 1/2 lot #040313, which is my current lot, and that it would group well. Then I would load and shoot a 10-shot group and all would be good.

That is not the way the morning went for me. The 5-shot group was over 5"!

So I took the 6 cartridges I had leftover after Rapids on the 22nd and shot those which resulted in a 2 11/16" group. Not bad. These had 88 grains of Swiss 1 1/2 lot #18/01/2016, but I only have about 1/2 pound of this lot left. This load did shoot pretty well at 600 yards.

Because I have a good amount of Goex 2F I had also loaded 3 rounds with 87 grains just to see if it showed any promise in my .44-77. That gave me a 2 3/4" group. This is really the only other powder I have at this time that I could load in the .44-77. The group didn't look to bad, it was wider than it was high.

With these results I decided to explore the 2 Goex a bit more before giving up on the .44-77 for the match. In the past Goex 2F has shot very well for me when loaded with 1/4" compression and sparked by Federal 215 LR primers.

I did some math and came up with how much 2F would give me a 1/4" compression. With a little trial and error to supplement my math skills it worked out to be 91 grains. I loaded 3 of my 441505EPP bullets over 91 grains topped with a .060 LDPE wad in BACO brass and Federal 215 primers. At 220 yards those when into 2 1/2" wide and 3/4" high. It looked good enough that I decided to load 7 more and shoot those into the same group and see how it looked with 10 shots.

To my surprise to 7 shots went into the group very well, finishing with 10 shots in 2 3/4" wide and 2 1/4" high. At 220 yards that is just over 1 MOA and that ain't bad. I will probably load and shoot another 10-shot group with this load to verify but 10-shot groups are not usually flukes.

   

Over the years I have shot some incredible 3-shot and even 5-shot groups only to never be able to reproduce them at will, but never have I seen such a thing with 10 shots at 220 yards. Groups will vary plus or minus a little but a load that produces good 10-shot groups at 220 yards will usually repeat reliably. At least that is what I have experienced. This load looks very good to me.

If this load repeats the next step would be to shoot it at 1000 yards and see how it holds up. It's been a long while since I shot Goex in a Creedmoor match. I've shot it for silhouette fairly often, but it's been about 10 years or more since I've used it for Creedmoor.

Another thing I found interesting was that there seems to be less fouling with the 2F compared to the 1 1/2 Swiss. The patches push through much easier and the bore is clean with my normal 2 wet and 1 dry.

[Don McDowell]

Looks like you and that rifle are starting to speak the same language

[Distant Thunder]

For whatever reason my 2013 lot of Swiss 1 1/2 just won't play nice in the .44-77, but this Goex 2F just may be what will work. Oddly enough I got the best accuracy from my .44-100 ST using Goex 2F also. There I used 1/4" compression and about a 480 grain RN paper patch bullet or a grease groove bullet of about the same weight, but that was an 18-twist barrel and I couldn't get longer bullets to fly straight.

I am way happy with my 17-twist.

My 2013 lot of Swiss shoots great in my .45-70 and my .40-65! Go figure!

This winter I'll get some OE for this cartridge. There just isn't enough time left of this season to get any and work up loads for Lodi. There is no way to even guess what 2021 will look like, who would have thought 2020 would suck as much as it has!

[Don McDowell]

Cartridge produced extremely good groups in my 44-77's but velocity was pretty low ,to low to make the grade at Raton,and it fouled like crazy.
Funny how these rifles can get so persnickety.

Hopefully 21 is much better, and the Lodi schedule works for me.

[Distant Thunder]

Today was not the best day to retest my 91 grains of Goex 2F load but I had time. There were gust of 25-30 mph so I had to just shoot between the gusts! The only thing different than the first group with this load was the use of Jamison brass instead of BACO.


   
Shiloh .44-77 standard chamber 1 in 17 Krieger barrel 30"
BACO 441505EPP 503 grains
.060" LDPE wad
91.0 grains of Goex 2F 1/4" compression
BACO brass
Federal 215 LR magnum primers

This is only the second group with this load but it does put most of the shots in a tight cluster. Both groups had the 1st shot out of the core. In the first group it was right 1/2 MOA and in this group it was low 1 MOA. After that first shot thing settle in pretty quickly. The two high shots in today's group were probably helped by the wind though I did have one high one in the first group.

This looks to be my best bet so far but what do you other shooters think? I will work on this load some but time is getting short and I've got to get loading. I've got all winter to work out the bugs.

I would also like to say that a a call to Kirk Bryan and he told me how to get this trigger working like it should. He's a busy man but he took the time to answer my questions and get things working correctly.

[J.B.]

Some very satisfying groups there Jim. Not that it changes the results but I"d be curious what the velocity was like with those Goex loads. Our sole importer of Swiss powder managed to secure another shipment recently so I've paid for 5kg of that at $120 AUD per kg. Currently thats about $38 usd per pound. I was happy to secure it but with our internal borders currently closed... I dont know when I'll ever get to see it. Hopefully by next year. We won't know what lot number it is until we take delivery. Tend to take what we can get down here. With 91 x Goex 2f I gather its bulking less for weight than the Swiss or are you able to get the neck space courtesy of the 1/4" compression ? I've never compressed Swiss that much ..probably not much more than 1/10 or 1/8" at most. Can hear and feel it 'crunching' away when I get too keen on the compression plug. Our yearly match has been postponed with yet another set of restrictions imposed and we are hoping we can get it off the ground by late October. The paper match I had hoped to hold this year...is likely now a dream for 2021 instead. Had good results with pp at our gong match in July with both the Kal moulds I've tried...and that was with my 1/19" rifle. Would really like the chance to see it perform in the 1/17".

J.B.