Development of PP loads for the .44-77.

[Distant Thunder]

Kurt,

My order for that bullet went in yesterday afternoon. When I called yesterday I got an entirely different response but a couple of emails cleared up any problems and it was listed sometime late yesterday.

The dimensions should be good for any grease groove chamber similar to Shiloh's standard GG chamber. The freebore in my rifle is .075-.080" long and the bullet will seat .120-.125" into the case with the angle up against the rifling lead angle. That overall length probably won't work out well in a 19-twist, would probably work ok in an 18-twist to 600 yards if the velocity is high enough, but it should work really well in a 17-twist and 16-twist out 1000 yards and beyond.

It is designed to be patched with 9# (.002-.0022") paper. The shank diameter should patch close to .438" with 9#. That would likely bring the base diameter to .448". I will size the patched base diameter to .447" to fit my freebore and JBA brass. That all should bring the fit very close to the same as my .40-65 2-DPPB and it has proven to be very accurate.

Hopefully the wait time will not be too long and I can get this bullet tested and a load worked up in time for Lodi in September. The .44-77 should work out with about 82-84 grains of 1 1/2 Swiss or similar powder. That should be work out well for Creedmoor.

I will be most interested in how it works out for you when yo get yours and get it tested. You have a variety of twist rates and cartridges to test it in and it will be very interesting to hear how the different ones handle it.

Are we having fun yet!

[beltfed]

YES! I am Having fun, too, Vicariously, even tho I do not have a 44-77.
Great to follow this journey and be a small part of it.
I am sure that Dave Will be real happy to get to run TWO of those JIM#441525EPP molds in one setup.
I hope the molds will arrive in time for you both to make bullets and shoot them on the 25th.
Arnie

[Distant Thunder]

It is a hot, humid & miserable day out there so I have not walked down to the target yet, but those 3 rounds I loaded last night look pretty darn good for a first group in my load development. They form a perfect triangle with something just over 2" ctc at 200 meters.

I will load a few more of those at 80 and a few at 82, 84 and maybe 86 grains and see if anything looks better out of the bunch. I think I'll keep the seating depth of .160" and just have more compression and see how that goes. Eventually I'll try seating this bullet very shallow, .090" or less and see what affect that has.

This is only 3 shots and it's not good to read too much into it, but this rifle has been shooting better and better through the whole process and it looks pretty good for a starting place. It may make a useable load for the first match which is less than 3 weeks away. I'm going to be tied up with other things the week before the match so I really only have less than 2 weeks to be ready to go and shoot.

Hitting the target would be better than mostly missing it!

[Kurt]

Man your right!! hot!!
I went to the range today also with the .44-77 Farmer and it was a disaster!!
The Jeep thermometer said 94 and no air moving, the smoke just hung in there.
I loaded some 5 shot ladder loads with different bullets and powder. I took some sighter shots to bring the scope on target (upper left spot) and moved to the top center with some 3F 80 gr loads and the gibbs bullet. $ shots went 2 1/4" and the 5th went high. I could not see the holed through the cardboard using a spotting scope so I ran down range to see if I was close enough to the orange dot to shoot the rest of the loads ranging from 3F to 1.5F so I just shot each test load on all spots going right to left and down. The target was in the shadows and those little posters are small and hard to see so I just shot and never went back down range till the box was empty.

I have no clue what went on. It looks like I took a shot gun loaded with 000 buck. The groups drifted right and up 12" plus. A lot of sweat for nothing this morning. Everything on the scope is tight when I got home. Don't know what is going on yet.

   

[beltfed]

Kurt,
Fouling in this darn hot weather???
arnie

[Distant Thunder]

So I loaded up 3 each of 80, 82 and 84 grains of 1 1/2 Swiss. I had to adjust the seating depth about .060" deeper. It's the same lot of Swiss just a different can (bottle), but I could not get any compression on 80 grains unless I went deeper. Never noticed anything like that before.

The bullets ended up all at .220" in the case. I'd also note that this .431" bullet patched with my 9# paper is a really snug push into the bore, which is the way I like it.

Two hours after the first 3 shots this morning I was back outside and shot 3 more 3-shot groups at 200 meters. I didn't change the target paper or my scope setting when I shot the second 3 with 80 grains. A very light breeze from one o'clock was blowing for the second group. When I shot the first group this morning the smoke just hung in front of me for 3 to 4 minutes before I could even see the target. There wasn't much wind but it did push the second group down and slightly left. The first 80 grain group is about 2 1/4", the second one is closer to 2 inches.

I came down 2 1/2 moa and shot the 82 grain load. I went back to center and then 3 moa more and shot the 84 grain load. All in all I'd say the 80 grain shot a bit better and had less recoil but none shot bad. The 82 and 84 grain load were just a bit more spread and not such nice triangles like the 80 grain.

I'll do some more shooting with the 80 grain load, but I don't see any reason it wouldn't work for the match at Rapids.

The other picture is some of the confetti on the ground in front of my bench. I read a lot about fine confetti, it don't get much finer than this. I don't worry about confetti much, I worry more about the target, but if you like fine confetti this oicture is for you.

   

   

[Kurt]

Those are starting to look very good Jim for 200.
I think your seeing some difference with the load volume because the cases are blown out properly for your chamber.
With the heat today, from your amount of powder with slight com[pression you must not be using lube. Are you feeling a lot of drag when you're wiping?



Arnie,
No I don't think it is a fouling issue. I did not feel any drag pushing the damp patch through and the following dry patch had very little on it.
When I got home I pulled the scope and checked the block screws and they were tight and put the scope back on. I will reload what I shot this morning and do it again. Supposed to be hotter tomorrow and it looks like it will start raining this evening making the humidity a bear tomorrow.
I got the .441/525 DD ordered for this loose chamber and tight throat.

[Distant Thunder]

Kurt,
These cases have been fireformed once with the same load, but some may be blow out a little more than others due to annealing differences. Either way I've got 10 of the 80 grain loads ready to try tomorrow afternoon. That will tell me a lot more.

The groups today are only 3 shots but are in the 1 to 1+ moa area and that is pretty good if it holds up for 10 shots. Even if ten shots opens up to 3 inches it is still a reasonable load for gong and silhouette matches. For long range the only way to know for sure is to shoot it at 1000 yards. It is at least a good start. When I was working with my .40-65 developing my 2-DPPB load my first 10-shot groups were in the 5 inch range at 200m. With a little tweaking it became a 1 moa or better load and does so pretty consistently. This one will get there too, I can feel it, it wants to shoot well!

Nope no lube other than the oil in my wiping solution. I was wiping with 2 wet and 1 dry. One wet just isn't enough and the residual fouling will slowly accumulate and accuracy falls off. For match shooting I have a set of bore pigs I made in .44 caliber. With the pigs one push trough is all that has ever been needed with my .45s and .40-65.

There were a few times when the first wet patch would tighten up in the last couple of inches of the barrel, the second wet would push through smooth and even and still pushed out some fouling. The dry patch came out with a just bit of gray and was damp.

It's been real tough shooting this past week, temps up in the 90s and high humidity with almost zero wind! Nothing like having the sweat running in your eye to help with accuracy.

My rate of fire was slow enough that the barrel never really got very hot today plus I'm in the shade inside my shootin' shack.

[Distant Thunder]

I'm going have to reach deep into my bag of excuses for this target!

   

I marked the order of shots, sometimes this can help piece together what went wrong. The big thing that affected this target was the cross wind, it was mostly pretty mild but somewhere between posting the target and shooting the group it started gusting. Sitting my in shack with NO flags out I really wasn't aware of the gust until I walked down to get the target. The last 75 yards are more open and I could feel a couple strong gust from the right as I approached the target. Once to the target there were a couple of gust from the left but not as strong as those from the right. At least that's the way it was while I was at the target. Really very unsteady conditions, calm mostly then a wild gust or two from one way followed by one or two from the other.

So I figure shot 6 & 8 are when these gusts started.
#1 was from a clean, oiled barrel. I do run a 1 wet and 1 dry through before I start but it's only half moa high, could easily be the clean barrel.
#5 and 10 are low but I figure that's just the bottom of the group.
#2 did go a bit left but not very much really and could very easily have been just me.

Extreme spread ctc is 4 3/8" or about 2 moa, remember this is 219 yards. The core of 7 shots is 2 1/2" ctc and that's getting into the "pretty good" area. I just have to keep all ten inside that size.

Now I just have to figure out what to do to improve it some. Being this bullet isn't likely going to be used for long range I'm not going to work too hard with this 520 grain weight. I hope to use the 2-D elliptical that BACO is making for me for long range.

I am thinking I wouldn't mind using a 450 grain (1.260"long) version from this adjustable BACO mold for silhouette and gong matches to 600 yards. So I may switch to that weight and see what I can do there. I won't likely shoot a long range match until the end of September at Lodi.

So for a first load it's not too bad, but could be improved on.

[J.B.]

Everything seems to be showing great promise Jim. With the moulds on hand and the ones in the making or planning.. just so many potential variables to work with. For me I find its a little like being a novice cook with a huge larder at your disposal. You have or get close to a good recipe and then find the cupboard has so many spices and herbs in it that you just 'wonder' if adding this...or changing that.. might be good for the dish. Sometimes it improves it...other times 'not so much'. I envy you the opportunity to be able to test loads in small batches. Our shoots tend to be 'travel away' weekends to club level matches...so its 'trial by combat' as it were. As long as I learn from a poor result.. I'm not so despondent . We are hoping to put a raising target Creedmoor match on in October and that will be my first match on paper in about two and a half years. I'll be putting together my first lot of flat base rolled bullet loads today... so hopefully I won't have pulled out what little hair I have left by this evening. Keep it coming..
J.B.