New P.P mold for 45-70

[Randy Bohannon]

I want to get a paper patch mold for my Shiloh 45-70. I have been shooting the 540 gr. Paul Jones Creedmoor 45001 for the past 12 yrs thought it was all I would ever want, it shoots very well out to 500M. I bought a Steve Brooks Pointed bullet mold off of gunbroker for $100.00 it cast a 510 gr bullet @.460
the mold fins bad with either Cabin Tree handles or Redding. I have taken to running the bullets through a Lee .460 push through sizing die to clean them up.It does very well and these shoot even better than the PJ mold.
I was thinking of a p.p mold with the pointed profile and a bit heavier @530-540 gr. I have a lifetime and then some supply of Plover/Neenah cockle finished onion/25% cotton paper it measures .10 with my digital calipers.I plan on dry wrapping so thinning when wet is not a issue.
I could use some help with the diameter of the bullet math. .450 bore - two wraps of .10 = .20 .450-.20 = .430 for bore dia. paper patched to get to .450. Am I all wet ?
Thank you in advance to Gunlaker and Don who undoubtedly will have great wisdom.
Randy

[Mike]

Randy, You're not completely all wet but maybe kind of damp. You should go for a bullet with a diameter closer to .444" and the patching paper is closer to .003" in thickness. Take a look at the Sharps styled molds made by KAL at http://kal.castpics.net/. This should give you a bit more guidance. Shoot sharp, Mike

[mherth]

I want to get a paper patch mold for my Shiloh 45-70. I have been shooting the 540 gr. Paul Jones Creedmoor 45001 for the past 12 yrs thought it was all I would ever want, it shoots very well out to 500M. I bought a Steve Brooks Pointed bullet mold off of gunbroker for $100.00 it cast a 510 gr bullet @.460
the mold fins bad with either Cabin Tree handles or Redding. I have taken to running the bullets through a Lee .460 push through sizing die to clean them up.It does very well and these shoot even better than the PJ mold.
I was thinking of a p.p mold with the pointed profile and a bit heavier @530-540 gr. I have a lifetime and then some supply of Plover/Neenah cockle finished onion/25% cotton paper it measures .10 with my digital calipers.I plan on dry wrapping so thinning when wet is not a issue.
I could use some help with the diameter of the bullet math. .450 bore - two wraps of .10 = .20 .450-.20 = .430 for bore dia. paper patched to get to .450. Am I all wet ?
Thank you in advance to Gunlaker and Don who undoubtedly will have great wisdom.
Randy

Randy, I have 2 BACO PP Money bullet moulds that cast .446 and .444 in 16:1 alloy and a Brooks PP mould that casts .442 in 16:1, all around 535-540 grains. With Nennah onionskin the .444 fit nicely with just thumb pressure, dry wrapped. Will give you some of each to try when I return in late March if you can wait. I use Southworth onionskin with the 442 and Mead 8 lb with the 446.
Mike

[Don McDowell]

In that Shiloh 45-70 I would caution you to watch the length of the bullet, keeping that to around 1.4 inches, weight not more than 535. That will be at the upper limits of the available horsepower and barrel twist.
I would suggest a bullet of .442-.444 with that thickness of paper you have.

[bruce moulds]

randy,
4 x 0.001 = 0.004.
if your bore is 0.450, and your paper does not stretch when wrapped, you need a 0.446 bullet.
while you say your paper is 0.1 thick, that sounds too thick.

i would suggest that the brooks bullets is not shooting better than the p.j. bullet due to nose shape.
it is more likely a diameter thing or length thing.
the best nose shape fir your velocity range is elliptical or money.
this is due to a more stable airflow.
baco have a 0.444 and a 0.446 elliptical.
if you want to be really cunning, you can get kal or brooks to make you a bullet that patches to 0.460 where it is finger seated in the case, and also to bore diameter where it goes in the bore.
this will avoid major case neck sizing and improve accuracy.
make the large diameter about 0.150 long and you will get plenty of powder in your cases.
keep safe,
bruce.

[Randy Bohannon]

if you want to be really cunning, you can get kal or brooks to make you a bullet that patches to 0.460 where it is finger seated in the case, and also to bore diameter where it goes in the bore.
this will avoid major case neck sizing and improve accuracy.
make the large diameter about 0.150 long and you will get plenty of powder in your cases.
keep safe,
bruce.
This ^ The pointy bullet is a reduced band bullet and only .460 at the bottom it is a bore rider. Bruce you make molds? Is this a dual diameter bullet ? I apologize for my ignorance .My rifle prefers a fat bullet apparently. This fun again learning how this stuff works.I don't think I am reading my the paper thickness correctly.


Thank you all, I knew I couldn't do math and get this right. I suspect that Bruce is closer to what is really happening with the pointy bullet. Can I send a couple of sheets of this paper to one you sharper than me guys and measure this paper ? I suspect I am doing something wrong.

[bruce moulds]

randy,
on firing, before the bullet starts to move, it bumps up to whatever diameter the space allows.
for the part of the bullet in the case, this is the internal obturated diameter of the case.
the closer to that diameter the bullet is, the sooner it seals the gas, and the less it upsets.
these factors affect accuracy in a positive way if the fit is better.
old time match chambers took a patched to bore bullet with a friction fit into the case, and hence could not take groove diameter bullets.
modern groove diameter chambers can do the same with a dual diameter bullet.
i do not make moulds. am just afflicted by that surname.
have however spent some money on them over the years.
keep safe,
bruce.

[Randy Bohannon]

I figured out my mistake on the paper thickness, I'll wear my glasses in the future, it is .010 . I will be calling Steve Brooks and discussing the mould. Again Thank you Bruce for the explanations.Most likely go with the Elliptical nose and a tapered bulletin no longer than 1.5" and 520-530 gr.

[Kurt]

Randy the .010" sounds like it's still to thick for a cockle finished onion skin paper. I have never seen cockle finish onion skin paper thicker then .0022". It usually runs from .0015 to .0021" from the thin side to the thick side.
If your paper is in fact one thousand thick it is not thick enough for a PP bullet for the modern four thousand deep groove now used. You should at least use a paper that two wraps is no less then the groove is deep. I would not use a paper that is less then 1-1/2 thousands thick.

[Randy Bohannon]

Kurt, thank you for that, it makes sense, I am getting great nuggets and better understanding how this works.I do have some of the drafting paper Don Mc D recommends. I will shelve the the onion/cotton paper for now and go with what works.No matter how I measure it, it is thick paper, made in the early 60's.