Dirty bore shooting

[Eric Johanen]

Have been thinking about this. I've gotten close with the 50-70 standard Shiloh chamber using BACO .494 500 grain slick patched to .500 dia and OE 1.5 powder. Seating depth set to chamber just short of the fouling at the chamber mouth. I want to use a busing die to set the case mouth for a snug fit with a bullet patched to around .498 and see how it fly's. 45-70 using a tapered patched bullet that fits snug in the fired brass and is small enough to clear the chamber mouth fouling and lately the 44-77 with Orville's chamber dimensions patched to .439 seated just deep enough to clear the fouling for up to 10 shots with no fouling control. Tests are planned using a bullet patched to .437 when the weather improves. What is working for the rest of you fellow's? Let's not work alone and share the information that works. A check can be made of my progress on this board and am wondering what steps I'm missing and can add to my loading system to be successful.

[Don McDowell]

My Shiloh 44-77 chambers with the 7 degree leed shoot well, and as an aside on that, the fired cases from those chambers fit perfectly in an original Remington 16 lb barrel rifle..
Shooting dirty success is best achieved using the dual diameter bullet Brooks and others call the original sharps style bullet. The base of the bullet is only a few thousands smaller than the bore diameter, and the nose around .005 smaller. Mostly I use the seth cole 55 w wet wrapped. The bullet is seated so that the base diameter is just short of the lands. Wad stack is fairly simple a napa cork wad and a muzzle loader original dry lubed felt wad. I also wipe the patch with jojoba oil after the bullet is seated in the case. Jojoba oil also works well with a straight sided bullet such as the one I use in my 40-70.

[Eric Johanen]

Thank's for chiming in Don! Accounts of the old hunters mention 2 things they did do: Blow up the breech or down the muzzle and the use of a wiping stick for a long series of shots. Powders like KIK and OE have softer fouling than others which is a great help in dirty shooting. I have been able to get 8 to 10 shots without any control. After that hydration of the fouling is necessary. I suspect the old hunters would blow to keep fouling soft and at some point they would use their wiping sticks to clean out the fouling and continue on. I'm working with this in a effort to consistently keep shots in a volley ball on deer, a basketball for elk and banging steel out to 300 yards, (Using the open barrel sights). Nice to just load and shoot a string without being concerned with fouling control after a few shots.

[rdnck]

Eric--I have been shooting dirty without wiping or blow tubing for years with good accuracy. Yes, you do have to blow up the breech or down the muzzle occasionally. I have had MUCH better luck with this using paper patch than greasers, and the only powder that I have had good success with is KIK 2f or Old E. Forget Swiss, as the fouling is way too hard and doesn't hydrate when you blow on it.

If you want to shoot dirty, the bullet needs to be patched to around .003 under bore diameter. I load mine as nearly like the original Sharps ammo as I can, with a milk carton wad on the powder, followed by a 3/16 thick grease cookie and another milk carton wad. I then use a light taper crimp to hold the bullet in place. Any hardness between 16-1 and 40-1 seems to work for me. I use a lot of 50/50 wheel weights and lead, both for target and hunting.

If you want to load to bore diameter or over, you will have to wipe between shots, as the fouling will not let you chamber a round after you fire the first one. Shoot straight, rdnck.

[Eric Johanen]

I've come to that conclusion too.. about .003 under bore to chamber in a fouled bore. KIK and OE are soft enough and hydrate well. From working with the tight chambered 44-77 I see that a bushing sizing die with several different bushings to match the bullet diameter is about the only way to get a nice fit with the brass. The bullet seats with a slight friction fit and does not require any crimp to hold them in place. With the .439 patched bullets I have to seat deep to just short of chamber mouth fouling. With Seth Cole 55y the bullet is small enough to clear fouling and can be seated a bit longer for more powder capacity. I'll be doing a lot of work this summer getting this worked out. Have just ordered a 45 cal. bushing size die for the 45-70 and 45-90.

[Kurt]

Eric Shooting dirty is a combination choosing the right bullet and a good lube. The lube I use is very soft about the consistency of real butter that has been out of the fridge about 15 minutes or just a little stiffer then shortening that is still cool and when you squeeze it with the thumb and finger it squishes very easy. I use a OJ carton wad or freezer paper between the lube wad and powder and a very stiff wad under the bullet that will scrape the bore. The thing with just the freezer paper over the powder is to leave a lot of lube behind from the heat of the burn. I have pulled bullets that been loaded and I found no signs of the oil separating into the powder. But maybe it's the Vaseline in my mix that holds back the migration. My lube does not have oil in it.
The bullets I use for the PP is a tapered bullet from Tom Ballard and I use the tapered Gibbs from KAL as well as a undersized bullet but I like the tapered bullets better so I can use a little harder alloy to hold the setback of the ogive to keep the lead off the bore.
For the GG, It's very hard to beat the 121 PH or similar that has a ogive that is tapered right to the front driving band. It will feed no matter how bad the throat is fouled. I just shot two magazine tubes full of .45-70 rounds out of my Marlin CB lever rifle it holds 9 rounds and I shot them with 2F OE as fast as I could lever that rifle.
Don't count the flat nosed bullets short, they will reach out just fine and hit the iron hard.
Kurt

[Eric Johanen]

I've taken to loading the cards with the sharp edge up. I think it does help in scraping the fouling some and with thin cards and DGL lube it is deposited in the barrel as the cards do no have any lube sticking to them, just a thin film of lube leaving the surface a little greasy. Bullet size and patch length just a bit short of the ogive are working best for me. This allows the bullet to be seated in the case as long as possible and still clear the fouling at the chamber mouth end. Once one approaches dirty shooting success it is really great to just load and shoot a string of 10+ shots without any fouling control and still maintain good hunting accuracy. Shooting a steel match, most strings are set at 10 shots and just chambering and shooting is really nice. Can't wait for the weather to break and get back to working on this!

[Kurt]

Eric don't count out patching to groove either. I do this for light loads I let the young and gal shooters at the range that interest when I shoot and I ask if they want to try it. I have some deep seated were the ogive is set back far enough so it will chamber or I have some loaded for shooting dirty just for close in range fun shooting. Those deep seated loads shoot just as well as the tight to bore but they don't have the push I want for the long range. They are fun for 100 to 200 yards I have here for trigger time.