Wads?

[Don McDowell]

Oh dear more reading in Perry's book and looking at the equipment lists... Wads those ODG's used under their patched bullets were either none or a simple paper or very thin wad to keep the powder in place. Also have noted in the Remington catalog they did not mention a wad in reloading the ammunition, and Sharps only used a wad stack of any kind for hunting..
With all our convoluted wad stacks many of us use, Are we screwing up by not doing it the way those guys did?

[Kurt]

That is where the cup based bullet comes into play

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Don, I know that has me a wondering too, AT times, yet seen too much Data that shows, an unprotected Base suffers, I think more so though in a Grease Groove bullet. Dan T and I have discursed! or discussed this too some effect. I still think the better the base protected the better the bullet will do over the longer distances. PP bumps up much slower as it travels up the bore, the recoil impulse is even different. So must be the bullet's bump up.

Kenny

[Tombstone 71]

Kenny, I run .410 of wad stack and lube cookie as the 120 like's .200 compression with 115 gr. of 1F. If I were to just do a .060 wad on the powder under the bullit I can get 122 gr. which blows the paper off at the base and is no wano por caca for little timmy. I only shot 15 of those so I don't know how good the load was. I know that the buff hunter's used tapered with cookie's and the creedmoor guys did not and wiped clean between shot's? I am rethinking my load right now as I want to shoot the Cup with you guy's. Been reading the perry book and it is way cool, Thank you for all the odg info

Tim

[Kurt]

One thing about the ODG's is they more or less learned how to load the cartridges before shooting the long range Creedmoor matches in about 10-12 years and we have been doing the same thing for the last 140 years trying to reinvent the invented .
They were no different than we are now always looking to improve our shooting ability through improving the way we load these black powder rounds.
The Gun writers are just like we have today. Some just repeat what they have read or heard others saying or what they found working up loads and shooting them.
When you look at the old Creedmoor targets shot back then and look at the shot placements compared to what is shot now days on paper at those ranges 800-1000 yards or the mid range targets; I myself think today's shooters are turning in finer groups or at least equal than shot by the top ODG shooters written about in the old books and magazines from back then.
The ODG rifle cranks are no different than we are now.

Kurt

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Kurt,

I could not agree More!

Kenny W.

[Don McDowell]

I really wish we could get ahold of some of Hyde's, Hepburns etal bullets.
I'm almost thinking they were well over bore, and we now know they were hard.
So in some respects it would be more like shooting a grease groove, but not quite.
I know what a thin felt wad and the rubber gasket material does for my 44's, but when that roughrider comes back I do plan on loading some hardball alloy without wads,,, just to see what happens..
As to the odg's groups being larger, well maybe, but when you factor in 10 lb rifles, no artificial rests, no set triggers, and no spotters/coaches.. Things start to even up with what we have today.
I'ld sure like to see a match today run under those rules.

[Kurt]

Don.

I think if you look in the Cartridges of the world at the .44-100 bullet or at the ballards I think that would be close. I seen a original collection of Rem. Bullards and Ballards they all had the same shape as what is in the cartridge book.
The guy I got the chamber case out of the Sharps original long range #1 rifle at the collectors show that I used for the .44-90 bn Shiloh had some .44 remington st rounds but at $100 a round I left them lay

[Don McDowell]

Kurt I have a hunch that some of the bullets may have looked a lot like the money profile, others were more an elliptical, and some shot the standard sharps and Remington bullets.
But aside from seeing one of the actual bullets used by Hyde and others, I'ld really be curious to the wrapped and slick diameter.
Part of what has my curiousity up is the 44-77 bullet Brant Selb sent, it's .438 diameter and 450 grs, with the typical sharps deep cupped base, but you can tell by the gloss on the lead that the bullet was seated about 3 times deeper than they say to seat it in their reloading instructions....

[Kurt]

I have a couple .43 SP and .44-77 rounds I should see if I can get the bullets out without doing damage to them and take some measurements on the paper and slicks