Here's a few levers

[Hobie]

As you guys know, I love old guns, particularly the lever guns, too. I even have a few. Some that I owned were designed before WWII but made afterwards. I also like the old pump guns. I love to see lever guns and those are some nice ones. Thanks for sharing.

[Don McDowell]

Hobie when you get a chance give us a tale or two about your 45-75.

[Dan]

Have but three lever guns and two are less than 50 years old so they rate no discussion. The third is a Marlin '94 built pre '35 as best I can determine. Original chamber was the .25-20 Marlin and the bore was toast. Relined and chambered for the .25-20 Win and it does well with cast bullets. Has a tang sight not pictured.



50 yards, 10 shots:

[Don McDowell]

Dan if I recall you're a big paper patch fan. If so have you had any luck with patching for a levergun and if so how's about you start a new thread to tell about you exploits?

[Dan]

Don, I haven't gone there yet, but intend to with the Model 94 Win. in .30-30 soon as I can get a proper mould. I have also been running a .44 mag rifle with paper patch for about 13-14 years now and it is reliable in shooting sub 1.25" groups at 100 yards. 300 grain pure lead of my design that looks like this, before and after hog collision:



I do have a buddy that did that with a Marlin 1895 CB rifle in .45-70 and it shot remarkably well with 510 grain bullets from Montana Precision Swagging.
Berm recovery here:



My knowledge deficit with this idea stems from not having done it with BP save for a slug rifle using cross strip patches. As always, success will be found in mating dimensions properly. Probably I'll continue using smokeless in the .30-30 because it will continue as a primary deer rifle.

My perspective on patched lead in smokeless guns is not so much historical as practical. It provides a way to get high velocity with pure or soft lead alloys w/o leading the bore. The .44 runs close to 1600 fps and the friends .45-70 hovers around 1800 fps with the aforementioned bullet. Apparently they do not disintegrate....period. They tend to drop critters in a pile if shot placement is reasonably good.

The .44 bullet above broke both forelegs, 3 ribs and cut the top off the heart of a doe of about 160#. Another shot on a hog broke the shoulder with a raking shot, half a dozen ribs, 5 vertebrae and the left hip. They shoot well from revolvers as well, but I'd think there needs to be harmony between throat and bore dims for that to work.

Doing this with BP cartridges is down the road a piece but I'll get there soon enough. The senior Harsh Brother knows more than I ever will on that topic. I don't have enough experience with this to say so definitively, but I doubt there is an accuracy advantage between PP vs. GG bullets, assuming the dims are correct. It one likes running soft bullets faster than normal, PP is the way to go.

I ponder the wisdom of wrapping 1/4 bore bullets in paper for the Marlin.....

[Don McDowell]

Dan, there are a number of us here that run patched bullets with black.
I have messed with some patched in the 405 using whitepowder, but the results are rather inconclusive. That's the only levergun I've tried patched in, I'm mostly curious as to how well the patch would fare in the transition from a tube magazine to the chamber. Thinking down the road in the event a 38-55 levergun should ever get the opportunity to call my gunsafe home....

[Dan]

Don, I understand your concern over feed damage to the patch but it may be unwarranted. On one part, if you look at the bullet used in the .45-70 you'll note two things about it that essentially made that a non-issue. 1) The bullet has a small shoulder which serves as a break point reference for the forward limit of patch placement. 2) A close look at the loaded round reveals a very narrow sliver of paper visible just above the case mouth. In essence, if there is damage to the patch it will be so small as to be inconsequential. That gun and load combination will shoot sub MOA at 100 yards with a scope. It does nearly as well with a tang sight.

The .44 Mag PP I work with is shot with a Ruger 77/44. It has a relatively smooth feed ramp albeit brief. The one time I've experienced leading over the course of 1,500 rounds or so, resulted from a roll crimp rather than the typical taper crimp die I use. Roll crimps are bad, but you knew that. I didn't at the time.

Given the use of more conventional bullets the strategy I would/will employ is to minimize patch damage by seating depth, smoothing of friction contact components in the load cycle, or both.

A minor aside: My experience, thin as it is, says that every gun is it's own law. My .44 will blow skirts above 1,250 fps when using cup based bullets. It is fairly consistent with flat base bullets up to about 1,450 fps. If I employ a card wad over powder and use a short tucked base on a FB bullet, it rocks. (Lil Gun powder, LP primers)

On the other hand, my friend with the .45-70 uses cup based bullets with twisted tail patches (trimmed) , no card wad and had no problems from the very beginning. He was of the opinion that the loads around 1800 fps were a little crisp in recoil but I did not find them the least objectionable...at the time. Would probably sing a different tune today. I think his preferred load runs around 1650-1700 fps. (Rx7) Tried my best to get him to try BP but he never did so far as I know.

[bobw]

Don you need to find a copy of Paul Matthew's "The Paper Jacket". Paul shot lots of ppb's in 86's and Marlins in 45-70 and I believe some smaller rounds. Mostly patched to groove and then waterproofed the wrapped bullets by dipping them in melted parafin. He the loaded them and used them for whatever hunt he planned rain or shine. bobw

[Kurt]

Dan.

I have a swage die with that bullets profile. That bullet would be the ideal bullet to use in a lever rifle paper patched.
That bullet would let you shoot dirty using black powder with out a feeding problem.

I only have 4 lever rifles.
Three are the marlins a .22, 30-30 and a .444. The .444 and 30-30 and the 444 has the microgroove rifling. The .444 I will get re barreled or relined with the ballard rifling and the .30-30 might end up being a .38 something ??.
The 99 Savage is a early .300 savage I really like.

Kurt

[Don McDowell]

Bob I tried dipping patched bullets in melted lube , and while it did work without any major malfunctions, I prefer wiping the patch down with jojoba oil (bein's spermwhale oil isn't available) as per the instructions from the 1875 Remington catalog