Baco 438470

[JKR]

Yes I do. I prefer and my rifles agree that a bullet with some neck tension shoots best.
I also find tha shooting patched in a standard chamber the cases don’t expand quite like they do with a greaser.
If the size die sizes the case to tight for the patched bullet then I use an expander die that expands the mouth to .001 over the patches diameter

Don,
I’m a bit surprised by this. How much tension are you actually using? Is it enough to require a seating die?
My experience has mainly been with the 45-70. Of course, with the match load, the bullet is barely in the case so just enough neck tension to hold on to the bullet when it’s handled.
I’ve also developed a good shooting, short range, load with a 400 grain, groove sized PP bullet. It seats deep like your DD bullet. It does not like any neck tension and gives very nice accuracy if slip fitted in a fire formed case.
It looks like you’re on to a great shooting load! It sure is satisfying when we hit upon what these rifles like!
Jim

[Don McDowell]

Jim , most of my paper patch loads are tight enough you don't need a seating die, but if you pull the bullet there will be a slight pop when it clears the case.
I also seat my parrallel sided bullets a bit deeper than most. But it all comes down to what the rifle and the target tells us.
I got started on deeper seating, and tighter fitting bullets than many suggest by close examination of a bullet pulled from an original Sharps 44-77 Creedmoor round. You could actually see where the bullet had been seated into the case nearly a half inch and could see a slight ring on the bullet at the end of the case mouth.

[JKR]

That’s interesting Don. This is a bore sized bullet? Does deep seating like this work for you in a standard grease groove chamber?
Jim

[DirtySteve]

Since we are talking about deep seating here, I will mention what I saw this year at the Quigley. A guy in our squad said he was shooting paper patched bullets like me and my partner were but seated them deeper. My partner seats 1/8th and I 3/16ths. I looked at this guys cartridges and could barely see any paper. He seated to where only the slightest hint of paper was showing. He was also using smokeless powder and loading this way kept him from needing a filler. I was amazed this actually worked for him.

[JKR]

Steve,
That guy was no doubt using a groove sized bullet. Smokeless won’t bump up a bore sized bullet like black does. I’ve loaded lots in this fashion for my 38-55. Seated to a depth where the bullet is just off the lands, only about 1/8” of paper is exposed. I also use a fair amount of neck tension in this load.
The groove sized bullet that I mentioned earlier, used in my 45-70, is loaded in a similar fashion but with black powder and no neck tension.
Jim

[Don McDowell]

That’s interesting Don. This is a bore sized bullet? Does deep seating like this work for you in a standard grease groove chamber?
Jim

Jim my dual diameter bullets are at or just under bore before patching
My straight sided bullets are about .004 under bore before patching
The one exception is the .400360 Baco bullet but it sure shoots well out of my 40-70 st
I don’t have any rifles with a paper patch chamber they’ll all shoot greasers if need be

[JKR]

Don,
My rifles have grease groove chambers as well. Jim Kluskens believed that the standard Shiloh chamber was as good as any for paper patch. The 44-77 he was working with was so chambered, I believe. He had it coming along very well and had just mounted a DZ scope on it a couple weeks before his death. With his ability to read wind, I believe he would’ve done very well with that rifle this coming season.
Having said that, if I were to build a new long range rifle, I’d strongly consider a paper patch chamber. Jim’s Hepburn was chambered with a reamer especially designed for PP. That rifle really shot well for him.
Jim

[Don McDowell]

Jim and I had a lot of discussion on the 44's. I do think he was on his way to making that new one of his the rifle to beat.
I've just not seen anything for results from anyone with a "paper patch" chamber that convinces me it's the way to go.
Tight tolerance grease groove chambers such a Shiloh's and some of the custom ones out there shoot patched very well, but still allow for the use of a grease groove. I'm of the mind that most folks try to match grease groove bullet weight when shooting patched and forget that a bullet patched to bore or just under with the same weight as the grease groove bullet they're used to are getting a bullet that may be just a tad long for the twist.

[JKR]

Don,
If a straight sided, patched bullet is deep seated and fired in a grease groove chamber, does it become a DD bullet? My understanding is that the bullet will bump up to the case ID when the light comes on. Do I have this right?
I was lucky to have Jim to get me started. He made sure I had a proper bullet by loaning me one of his molds. I later had Steve Brooks make a mold that duplicated Jim’s #6 bullet. It has performed well in both my rifles.
JKR

[Don McDowell]

It won’t be a dual diameter but more of a tapered bullet