Development of PP loads for the .44-77.

[Kurt]

Jim,

I hope you don't mind me adding range results using Arnies DDPPB. It seems to be a fine working bullet that just seems to shoot pretty good with just about any powder load from what I have seen to this point of my using it. This is only the second try and at this point I'm very happy with the way it's printing holes through the paper. I'm not up to your results but may results are better then yesterday's.
Today I could not shoot the 200 yard pit targets the range was very busy and all frames were filled so I set up infant of the pit at 185 yards. I just about went home and shot on my 130 yds but I want to keep it at the .22 noise level till I get to know my new neighbors better.
All my shots were 6 shots except using some old loads I had left over with the BA 430/520 bullet and the KAL Tapered Gibbs. The Gibbs has always shot well in the 19 to the 16 twist were I have it locked at 1.390" long.

I got this mould from our Don McDowell but I think he made a mistake selling it. When I got it it cast a very ugly bullet that had vent hairs and parting line fins but I reworked the mould adjusting the pins and replaced the very large sprue plate holes with a .100" diameter hole and now it's a fine mould.

This DD bullet seems to shoot very consistently small verticals with every load I have tried to this point. I made no allowance for wind and just a couple time I made a elevation change after the 6 shots starting on the next.
This time I changed the wad stack because I had some lead show up yesterday and I think this happen because the patch was not high enough up the ogive and the hard wad stack I used, one OJ card wad and a .060" polly, bumped the base pretty hard. Today I switched the polly with a .45 caliber .060" cork to give the base a little cushion and the oversized .45 caliber cork compresses flat and makes a tight gas seal and I found no lead today with 50 some rounds fired and not changing the patch hight.

I'm very happy with what I see at this point.. I want to try this bullet in the other twist rifles but they have a tight chamber and a bullet in the case will not begin to chamber so the other option is breach seating the bullet and that will also be a plus being to easily seat the short groove diameter patched bullet and not line one were the full length shank has to be pushed in. That over works the tool lineage using this hard alloy.


                   

[Distant Thunder]

Kurt,

Heck yea, come on in the waters fine! I would encourage any .44-77 shooter to join in, the more information the better. I like the free and fair exchange of ideas.

That Gibbs bullet shoots really well.

I was running low on bullets today and I often go to 3 shot groups when I want to quickly sort things out. None of the 5 primers I tried shot bad but the Federals really looked good.

I plan to cast more bullets tomorrow, hopefully enough to shoot the 210 & 215 primers again with 5 or 10 shot groups and enough for Rapids, maybe even Lodi.

I'm finding the same thing, this bullet shoots well with a variety of loads. It will be interesting to see how it works at 600 at Rapids and out to 1000 at Lodi.

I've been patching it right up to the line where the ogive starts and haven't had any problems. So far the single .060 ldpe wad is what's working for me. I don't have the wad stack thing figured out yet.

Post all you want on your development and I'll read every word.

[Kurt]

I have a couple boxes of 215 Feds but they go back to the 90's when I got them. Maybe it's time I use them up. I fell back on them when the primer shortage was going on some time back. I have several different makes like Wolf, Alcan and some Russian primers as well as Slovian but I don't want to use them because they are a very tight fit in the primer pocket and I don't want to have then enlarge the pockets. I been using them in the .308.
The 600 will blow out the chaff for the best when the time gets here, but today was mosslike the last range time for me also. Like you I have a bunch of projects that need to be finished like taping and bedding the drywall I hung out in the garage and finish the electrical wiring in the man cave plus keeping up with the never ending grass growth with all the rains we been getting. Even the gravel driveway looks like part of the lawn mostly from the lack of traffic not going too often.

I just heard that Wisconsin put out a required mask mandate. I can just see the shooters at a match using them for a neck scarf or sweat band keeping the sweat out of the eyes.

[Distant Thunder]

It's hard to tell the truth from the lies when it comes to the China virus, there are more politician than doctors calling the shot!

Supposed to rain tomorrow and be 16 degrees cooler so I'll be casting!

I have to start painting the house as soon as the really hot, humid weather lets up. My wife wants a garden shed for storage and she wants it done by fall. I guess the new wood shed I started is on hold! We took a walk on the backside of our property this morning before it got too hot. There are so many trees down along the north line that we couldn't even walk to the corner! So once the cold weather gets here I be back there with the chainsaw clearing a path. Very little of it is fit for firewood and it would be too much effort to haul it out across the swamp so it will just have to lay there and rot. So much of it is stacked on top of other trees and it won't rot if I don't put it on the ground, it would stay like that for 20 years. Winters only 3 months away! Hopefully the snow doesn't get too deep this winter. That's make getting around in the woods very difficult.

I'll do some more shooting with this rifle yet before Rapids and Lodi but I'm pretty happy with where I'm at with it already.

[Distant Thunder]

Today was extended testing on primers and clearly shows why 10-shot groups are need to gauge the accuracy of a load. One 3-shot group or even 5-group does not give a true idea of the accuracy of a load, bullet or rifle. Even one 10-shot group is not enough to know how a load will perform over time. that's why I say I am looking for accuracy over time, an aggregate of many groups shot over a period of time and various conditions. That's where shooting matches comes into play.

I don't do any shooting for groups really, I shoot for score and mostly on paper targets and the smallest group, most accurate load does not necessarily win that contest. The load that puts the most shot closest to the center of the target with consistency will win that game. The load has to respond when correction are made. You can only learn that at matches over time.

This morning started out in the upper 60s and warmed to the mid 70s, about 15-20 degrees cooler than it has been over the past month, but even more importantly it is far less humid. That' made it much more comfortable for any activity including shooting. The low humidity did cause me some trouble on the second target with the 210 primers.

I first burned up a couple of old loads to foul the barrel and warm it up some so that the 3 loads I shot would be a on an even footing. I then took 3 shots using the load I used at Rapids a week and a half ago. These loads used a Sagebrush bullet at 510 grains. That grouped pretty well but is only 3 shots.

   

Then I switched to the BACO 441505EPP which was designed for the Shiloh standard GG chamber that this rifle has. It was seated on one .060" LDPE wad on top of 86.0 grains of Swiss 1 1/2 in BACO cases with the necks turned and the load used Federal 210 LR primers. There was a moderate wind which was predominately right to left with some very light reversals. The flag would at times go straight out at 9 o'clock then drop to 7 o'clock and swing over to 5 o'clock. This did cause some left to right spread in the group which would be expected. I was wiping with my distilled water and 10% oil on two patches followed by one dry patch. After about the 4th shot I started to notice that the dry patch was coming out with some black clumps of fouling on it. This was a clear sign that my wet patches were not wet enough to wipe all the fouling out before the dry patch went through. The dry patch should be a little grey but have no black fouling on it really. Number 6 dropped low and it didn't occur to me why right away. Then #7 went wide right and I stopped and thought for a moment and, "Oh yea, I can see that!". I wetted my patches down some more and started running them through more slowly, especially the first wet patch and in that area just in front of the chamber. Shot 8 and 9 went right back into the group. Then I shot number 10! I really can't hang that one on anything! That one shot makes me
think the 210 primers aren't working the best for me, but more testing would be needed to see for sure if it's something in the load.

   

I don't consider shot 6 & 7 to be bad shots, just poor fouling control and me not paying attention close enough. When the light went on and I corrected what I thought caused the two shot to be out of the group the rifle put the next two shot right back in the group. That's a good thing. Shot #10 would have to be figured out and not happen again in more groups before I could trust the 210s.

I moved on to the Federal 215 primers with all else the same as the previous load with the 441505EPP.

The wind had begun to be up more than down and was getting stronger in it's peaks. I had to wait out a couple of those gusts. When I did break a couple of shots with the slight left to right wind I got shots 6 & 7. I really had to lay on the trigger and wait for my 7 o'clock wind and then shots 8, 9 & 10 went right into the core group again. Shooting this group really made me think the 215s are the way to go for now. Every shot went on call and breaking the shot in the right wind resulted in a very satisfying core group of 1 MOA. That's what I'm looking for.

   

To be fair to the 210s I would have to shoot both the 210s and the 215s side by side a few more times, but I don't think I'll have time to do that before Rapids. Also I am coming to the end of that lot of Swiss and I'd like to shoot Rapids with my development lot before I start working with the next lot. Probably nothing to worry about, maybe!

All in all a good day of shooting that taught me things about my load, primer and especially about the rifle and myself.

Now I'll chronograph this load with 215 primers and start getting ready for the match.

[Kurt]

Jim, I don't pay much mind with the horizontal when I don't correct for wind.
Your center target, not counting shot 6-10-7 what is the vertical of the group?

[Distant Thunder]

Kurt,

I agree, I want small verticals, especially further out. At 220 yards I don't mind small round groups and I'm not bothered at by the horizontal spread of these groups. I made no sight correction from start to finish. I did watch the wind and as to know why shots went where they went as to shoot in the same wind each time.

I'm looking for consistency and for the load to respond to adjustments in my wiping and breaking of the shots. I never touched the knobs from the first shot to the last this morning. If I break a shot to the right I want that to show on the target.

Shots I can not explain where they came up on the target are the ones that I worry about. And yes, there are times when a bullet that looks good and weighed good has a flaw that is undetected that causes it to "miss the mark". I've seen it many times in a match and if I can't find the cause for a shot that did not hit near center I am likely to take another shot without any adjustment or correction. I hate to correct off a bad bullet. If a second shot goes to the same place and not near center then I will probably make a correction, but again only if I have no other explanation for the shot being off and it has to be caused by an unseen condition change. Even then I will not over correct, nothing good comes from over correcting.

Anyway back to group shooting. The 210s produced a nice 7 shot group. And it came back to center with proper fouling control. It is only shot #10 that raised my eyebrows. That is only one shot out of 10 that I could not figure out why it went where it did.

The vertical on the 215 is under 2 inches which is pretty good. What I really liked is that all 10 shots went where I thought they should within a inch. That I think is a very good sign. When I passed on the very light left to right wind shots 8, 9 & 10 were right in the core group. It impresses me how such a light breeze can move that big bullet over 1 1/2"! You think you can beat the wind but you can't.

It is only a .44 though! So there's that.

I just want all my shot to go where I aim them (or very darn close to it)! That's not too much to ask is it!

I think the rifle, cartridge, bullet are doing well, now I just have to do better!

[Kurt]

I can live with 2" vertical @200. I have some Fed 215 primers that I got for Roland from Germany when he shot the Quigley but never used them. This might be a good time to give then a try looking at your results. I haven't used 215's going on 20 years.
I worked with the drywall I hung again today because it cooled off so maybe tomorrow I will hit the range again. I loaded some for the .44-77 and the 20# heavy Shiloh .44-100 to try the DD bullet but the chamber is almost to tight. I had to cut some 55Y paper and even the .0014" thick paper from my roll patched I had to flair the mouth slightly to seat the bullet in a fired case .09" hurt the palm of my hand seating them. This is not good for an even release and it will spike the vertical most likely but I will shoot them and see what happens.
That beast of a rifle has a 17 ROT Krieger 1.3"X35" round untapped barrel and I have shot 3/8" 3 shot ladder loads at 180 yards using this rifle and several 3/4" 3 shot ladder loads @200 but also have seen it dig high and low dirt past 800 yards, but I just don't like that rifle with all of it's potentials.

[Distant Thunder]

I don't believe I have ever used magnum primers with Swiss. I use them with Goex 1F & 2F with good results. The only reason I even tried them here is because primers are in short supply around here and I have to use what I have.

Both the 210 and 215 primers look pretty good and I'm sure I'll be shooting both for a while trying to decide which is best. Right now I'm siding with the 215.

I started setting up to paint the house siding yesterday but I messed up my left shoulder on Monday and I can't lift my left arm above my shoulder without considerable pain. Funny, I can still shoot my Sharps! I am right handed so.

Though the first 3 shots this morning made me think it wasn't going to be possible. After the first three shots it didn't seem to hurt that much so I kept shooting! I don't think I could shoot prone right now, but off the bench it's not bad.

Oh, I set up the chronograph this afternoon and this load is running at 1293 fps. Almost exactly what my .45-70 is doing with a 530 grain EPP over 83 grains of 1 1/2 Swiss.

[Kurt]

Range time again today but not with the .44-77. Today I wanted to take the 20# 35" X1.3 17b twist Krieger round barreled Shiloh .44-100 Rem st. rough rider. I seldom shoot this rifle because I don't like the weight.
I also wanted to try some of the Fed 215 Mag primers that shot pretty well in his .44-77. This I will do tomorrow if the range is not to crowded like it was again today and I had to setup in front of the berm at 180 yards again.
I have to say that I'm very pleased with the performance of this DD .44 bullet. It shoots well in the Farmer .44-77 and today it also looks good.
Conditions were very good this afternoon with the wind around 10 mph from 10-o clock and it was only 80 degrees perfect!!
I expected to see a bunch of vertical because even with the 55Y paper I had to use the bullet seated in a fired case very tight. I had to get it started twisting it in the case mouth and push the bullet against the counter edge to seat it and that expanded the case mouth the .090" the bullet was seated in the case. It would not chamber so I had to run it lightly in the size die to reduce it slightly to chamber. That bullet was so tight after doing this that I could not twist it even with only .090" in the case mouth.
This rifle was chambered with my reamer that has a 5 degree/1.5 deg compound funnel throat.
This bullet seems to repeatedly shoot well with different loads.