Development of PP loads for the .44-77.

[J.B.]

Now you guys are just showing off ! Two hundred yard ranges in your back yard and no visits from the tactical storm troopers when you do practice. Man... that would be magic. Jim ..given you've barely had the rifle a week... I'd say you are well ahead of the game already. Interesting your observations with the 50/110 brass as I managed to get 'one' example at the Quigley last year as it was all they had left between orders and hadnt made up any more. I was using gg bullets and managed to have it chamber without much issue. I know our rifles were done with different reamers but the only problem I had was the 'punched' rim that they have was a little proud for the block. A couple of runs on some fine grade paper had it fitting snugly. I do flare my cases...just the barest amount ( not easy when your cases can vary up to .008" in length I'll add ) but noticed from the get go that too generous a flare.. meant the cases grabbed on chambering. Outside neck diameter can go up to .4675 to .468... just ..but at .469 they grab. The neck wall on the one example I have is coming up at .0115" whilst most of the Jamison I have hovers around .009 or so. Its great to have these snug dimensions in a chamber and just adds to the quality of the product we buy and certainly helps preserve these cases..but it doesn't lend itself to wide variations. I have two batches of RMC brass I purchased a few years back and one runs .014" necks...and the latter at .011". The former lend themselves to that Brooks .431/.432" pp Sharps mould I mentioned ..without any neck sizing. My experience to date is that at .469".. the cases almost stopped dead in the chamber before going home...but one thou back and in they slide...with a hint of touching all the way around.
J.B.

[Distant Thunder]

Gavin,

I would say that the neck of your chamber and mine are very close to the same.

Back a year ago one of the first things I did was order a single case of the .50-110 brass from BACO. I wanted to see what were really the only cases available looked like. Kurt was able to get that one and a few other sample I had in his rifle when we were at Harris, MN last year and we fireformed it just fine with the the loads I had put together and bullets that Kurt brought for that purpose.

That case fireformed in Kurt's rifle slipped right into my chamber when I got the rifle.

The 100 pcs I just got last month from BACO are 7 grains lighter than the one sample from last year, the new ones average 222 grains. I had to full length size these new ones for them to even chamber unloaded. They would go in all except the rim thickness and stop. Then when I seated a gg bullet sized at .4465" it would not chamber. The outside diameter of the neck with the bullet seated measured .472". I figured that is about .004 bigger than what will fit. Just with my calipers I measure the a case neck with the OD at .467" and it was .442 inside. So I'm thinking they are a couple a side thick in the neck. More will be known once they are fireformed.

I cut patches tonight for the stubby 355 grains bullets I cast this afternoon and I patched a couple. No problem there and they fit nice in the sized and unexpanded cases. I'll dump some powder tomorrow and seat a wad and the bullets and see what a fired case looks like after they are cleaned.

With 200 fireformed cases I should be ready to start some serious load development soon. I hope so, I've got a match in 3 weeks and I'd really like to shoot this rifle if at all possible, but I'd also like to hit the target a couple times too.

[J.B.]

Yep... sounds like ..other than the transition.. our chambers are identical. The .467 is fine and actually about what my cases come out after firing.. but the .442 inside is a tad on the snug side for gg.. although, given your destination, may actually prove a good move with pp. Just the variations in what is or has been available gets a little tedious if trying to maintain some consistency in wrap thickness or just bullet diameter and tension overall. I was actually looking at ordering 50-60 of those BACo 50/110 variants to add to my stocks as it just pays to have some in reserve. I may still go that way and they'll be on the shelf if I need them. Sooner have a hundred too many than thirty... too few. There's still doom and gloom about International travel next year but I'll pick leave in June regardless...hoping I can make the pilgrimage once again. Need to wrap a few of the latest Kal mould and see how they look and chamber over 82-84 grains of Swiss 1.5.
regards.. Gavin.

[Kurt]

Several years ago BACO made a run of .348 Win cases for the .44-77 that was looking good but the rim thickness was not enough for my rifle and gave me some head space problem.

[Don McDowell]

The neck thickness on those 348 cases were all over the place as well. They were a good way to make a 44-77 go bang, but not so much for accuracy

[Eric Johanen]

Very interesting journey so far Jim. Brass supply and chamber variations can pose some problems that with thought and a bit of work can be overcome. I was fortunate to get my supply of Jamison brass several years ago and other than some quality control issues with the rim thickness it is great. As I said to you some time back I ordered the "Loomer" paper patch chamber and found it very easy to get it up and running. One the cases are fire formed they accept a paper patched bullet just a bit snug or if using a thinner paper need a kiss from the Meachem bushing size die. Have several in different diameters to adjust for the paper used. Difference between us is I envisioned my rifle as a hunter and steel banger using the barrel sights not a long range "Creedmoor" rifle. Enjoying reading of the development your on getting a 44-77 up and running for a long range target rifle. For a lazy man my choice is working very well. The two Brooks molds I am using: a 440 grain modified Metford bullet for a max of 200 yards and a 478 grain traditional Sharps type bullet for longer ranges this is a peach! This is a further caution against putting up ammunition before you have the rifle in your hands. Doing so will result in loads that may not chamber. Not fun at all! I have worked up a good load for each bullet and now am getting the sights set for them. I may adjust the Metford bullet closer in weight to the Sharps bullet and see how that works out for longer ranges just to experiment. 44-77's are a good cartridge but the best advise is get a 45-70 to start down the road first.

[beltfed]

Jim,
From what you are describing about your various brass,
Seems like After fire forming, maybe even after second firing
you would be good to so some outside neck turning-just enough
to get concentricity in neck thickness.
Arnie

[Distant Thunder]

Well being I plan on using a 2-D PPB in the end and I really need 200 good cases I can count on being pretty uniform. I will no doubt have to do my best to make these BACO brass fall in line with the JBA stuff or get another 100 BACO and uniform all of those.

The BACO cases do look very nice and within this batch are very uniform. If anything the rims on the cases I have are just a bit thin, which I don't think is necessarily bad. I just used these cases to set up my .43 Mauser die so the shoulder is just tight against the chamber. For my die/rifle that means it is set at .104" above the shell holder. Then when chambered the block just drags across the case. That shoulder I hope is substantial enough to head space off of and everything I've read indicates it is. Once fireformed there should not be any headspace problem no matter the rim thickness and with these cases it's only maybe .004" on the thin side.

No matter what, we are very likely not going to see Jamison brass anytime soon and the BACO is well made and available. The trick is be able to order enough all at one time to have the consistency throughout. When funds become available again I may just order 200 more from BACO now that I know what they are like.

I'll let you guys know how the necks look on my BACO brass once they are fireformed and what steps I take to get the IDs to what they should be, .447-.448". My JBA stuff is .447" inside after fireforming and .467" outside at the mouth and tapering to about .468" at the shoulder.

The BACO cases are .471" outside with a .4465" grease groove bullet seated and won't chamber. These will either have to be OD turned or ID reamed. Turning the ODs is probably easiest and best in the end. I have sure done enough of that in my time!

I'm enjoying the heck out of this cartridge and rifle, but it would not be a good choice for the faint of heart!

[Distant Thunder]

Arnie,
We're on the same page and at the same time too! Good morning!

[Distant Thunder]

Eric,
I know you and I have a different purpose in mine for our rifles and I have no problem with that. You are correct in your choices for the purpose you envisioned, hunter and steel banger. It remains to be seen if I have made the correct choices for mine, I believe I have.

If I knew I would have the time to pursue both paths I would very gladly do so. Your efforts, which I have followed with great interest, have only made me more determined to work with the .44-77, though in a slightly different direction. The .44-77 was both a hunting round and a target round back in the day. So together we will see how it works for those two purposes today. Pretty cool really! So don't stop posting about your journey, I know I'm mot the only one who has followed it.

I'm interested in your Medford bullet?