.44-77 and paper patch?

[Distant Thunder]

I have a real itch for a .44-77 and paper patch bullets. To that end I am planning on having an older Shiloh 1874 rebarreled to that cartridge.

There has been a fair amount of discussion on this forum about the .44-77 with paper patch and I have been reading through that stuff and anything else I can find elsewhere.

I’d like to ask those here that have experience with the .44-77 shooting paper patch what has been working for them and at what distances? What twist rate? What barrel length? What bullet style and weight? Also I'd like an idea of the accuracy you are getting? What load are you using? Powder? Wad? Primer? Anything will be helpful.

I would like to be able to use this rifle for silhouette and mid-range but also for long-range. For silhouette I shoot scope which allows up to 15 pounds. My scope weighs a bit less than 2 pounds. What barrel contour will give me a 12-pound rifle at 30”.

Where can I get brass?

This is an itch I’ve had for a long time now, I just can’t put it off any longer, it’s time to move.

Thanks for you help!

[Don McDowell]

Jim my 30 inch heavy barrel Shilohs both come in right at 12 lbs.
If you have Shiloh rebarrel it they use a 1-19 twist. Green Mountain puts a 16 twist in their 44 barrels which will give you the option for longer bullets, but I'm not sure it's needed
I've pretty much settled on bullets that are no more than 1.3 inches long, anything longer can cause you some real headaches when the distances start going beyond the 600 yard mark and you get anything more than a 10 mph crosswind. I stumbled on to that 1.3 inch thing pretty much by accident. I had been wrestling with trying to get decent accuracy at 1000 and setting here contemplating what to do when I looked up on my desk and got to noticing the length of an original creed moor bullet pulled from a 44-77 case and given to me by a collector and gun builder acquantance.
Those dual diameter bullets I gave you at Lodi will shoot to 1000 just fine, and they will flat hammer the silhouette rams. I am comptemplating having Brooks cut me another of his dual diameter sharps bullets in a base pour at 1.3 inches long .436 on the base and 434 at the base of the nose with his original postel nose.
Powder that I use most is either OE 2f or 1.5. The long gone Cartridge made for some very accurate loads and at the same time makes you so very happy for cleaner burning and a bit more energetic powders. I tried Swiss but the first rifle hated the stuff so bad I never tried it in the second. Some day when time allows I want to try some of the OE 1f, both rifles were really repulsed at Schuetzen 1f. May wait to do that until I decide whether or not to pull the trigger on one more Shiloh. This one will be a #1 with a 32 inch standard weight barrel.
Cases are the biggest problem unless and until Jamison/Captec come back on line. BACO does offer some reformed cases I think they are using 348's. There is another work around on cases, but that's something we should discuss in email conversation. If by chance a person could come across some of those Jamison's in 43 spanish or 43 Mauser they can be easily sized to work as well.
The 44-77 is my favorite cartridge.

[Don McDowell]

Also should mention there are no flies in the ointment for silhouette and midrange with a 1.1 inch bullet.

[Gunner500]

Yes, Don about covered it, I will add a 1.285" bullet weighing 475gr shoots really well with 19 twist, the reformed 50-110 Starline brass from BACO is good stuff too, it should last a good long while.

It was hard for me to get my head around a bullet that short, but after talking to RDNCK, and reading what Kurt and Don said here, plus reading what the buffalo and match shooters of the day did with them, I filed it and forgot it, will see how they work on some animals this fall.

Good luck to You getting up and running, it's a wonderfully fun accurate cartridge that burns clean and has next to no recoil.

[Distant Thunder]

Don,

I hoped you would reply to this, thank you.

I want a 17 twist and here is why. I almost had a .44-77 built a dozen years ago for all the same reason I want one now. Some "friends" were working with a .44-100 Remington straight and I was talked into going the route instead. It's a fine cartridge, but it's not a .44-77. The Badger barrel I used was a 1 in 18. It was a disappointing endeavor at every turn. I'd have to dig out the my old book to tell you the details on the bullets I tried, but none worked to my satisfaction.

I finally stumbled into a rather blunt and short grease groove bullet that did well out to 600 yards. It worked very well on silhouettes. When I shifted to paper patch it did even better, but those had to be short and blunt. Blunt is fine, short is limiting. Then there is the 100 plus grains of powder to fill the case with a shallowly seated ppb. I did come up with a load that used multiple wads and a grease cookie over 85 grains of 2F Goex to push a 480 grain ppb at a respectable speed and acceptable recoil. I won at least one mid-range match with that combo.

Then came my Hepburn and the Danielson .45-70 paper patch chamber. MY .44-100 just couldn't live up to that performance level. I continued to regret not going with the .44-77, it just so sexy! I'd have that going for me at least.

I talked to Shiloh recently, as much as they would help, but can't get answers to my specific questions about what they can provide. Then I found on a different forum what their twist rates are and I just can't see how a 1 in 19 is going to be a step up. I really believe a 1 in 17 will be very helpful in realizing the full potential of the cartridge. It doesn't have to be a long-range rifle for other that an occasional match just so I can say I did it. It does need to shoot respectable at 1000 yards if that's possible and it should be.

I see this as my last chance to do a .44 caliber rifle the right way and I won't be happy with anything that's not a .44-77 shooting paper patch bullets because that is what I really want. I've got a guy who will put the barrel on my action, eventually, and I know that brass is going to be a PITA. I can accept all that. Last time I let those kind of arguments turn me in a different direction, that won't happen this time.

I am hoping to get as much information as I can to avoid any mistakes and shorten my learning curve with this go-round. If you have a suggestion on brass I'd like to hear it, email me please. If you have ideas on a paper patch chamber/reamer I definitely need to hear that. I will go with a standard gg chamber and a 2-diameter ppb if a paper patch chamber seems to complicated and I have to have a reamer made. I know a 2-diameter will work very well.

I have to blame Eric for this bug that has bitten me (again). Watching him shooting his .44-77 with ppb and having way more fun than should be allowed has really been gnawing on me. I want in on the fun while I still have time to enjoy it for a good long while.

So, just how much powder are you putting in for the typical load?

I got ahold of a BACO .44-77 that has been reformed from .50-110 brass and it looks really good. I will see just how much powder it takes to fill the case.

Thanks again for your help.

[Don McDowell]

I think if BACO is using that 50-110 brass it would be a much better route than the 348, and should solve any case availably issues.

The loads I use the most is 77 grains of OE 2f, a napa rubber cork wad and the muzzleloader original dry lubed felt wads under a patched bullet. 76 grains of OE 1.5 also shoots very well.
I had Brooks build a .435 diameter bullet 1.29 inches long with his "new" postel nose that when cast from 18-1 comes over the scale at 460 grains. It holds very well at 1000, and as a matter of fact saved my bacon from a complete disaster on the 1000 yard target at the Nationals a few years back. That 434475 bullet I had BACO build just couldn't take the wind in the 19 twist beyond 800. I will divert a bit here, and say that bullet in the 44-90 st with it's 17 twist holds scarily tight all the way to 1000. Funny what that tiny bit of extra length will do to screw things up at distance.
The thing I like about the dual diameter bullet that I gave you is that with the jojoba oil on the patch can be blowtubed like a greaser and hold good accuracy. Mike Venturino and I had a good laugh at the Utah state match when I cleaned the first 2 banks of pigs with the 44-77 blowtubed.. his quote "you know those bottle neck cases won't shoot and you can't blow tube paper patch according to the experts, so there's no way we are seeing all those pigs laying on the ground".. It also makes a fine hunting bullet that will drop elk so fast that they almost beat their shadow to the ground.
I like Shiloh's reamer with the 7* lead built into the reamer. Altho there really are no flies in the ointment with their standard reamer.

Another thing I'm starting to develop a theory on is paper thickness, using thin paper such as 8 lb and 7 lb eliminates the dreaded paper rings with standard chambers, especially when coupled with the dual diameter bullets, and straight sided bullets that are just a touch under bore diameter before patching.

On another diversion ,the Wyoming State match is probably going back to an early June date , so if you folks of the Lodi Legend keep the May dates for the Cup and State match, you probably better get those border guards trained up and on patrol, cuz I know a couple of Wyoming ruffians that are thinking to jump the fence and make a return to the land of cheese and brats. So keep us posted on your 44-77 journey, one of them can bring you a selection of bullets.

[Distant Thunder]

Don,

I would welcome the opportunity to sit down and talk with you again for sure, so jump that fence anytime you can! And DO bring bullets.

I'm pretty darn close to pulling the trigger on a GM barrel. The rest I'll work out as I go forward.

I'm thinking a standard chamber with 2-diameter ppb. I know I can make that work.

I don't know if Shiloh will work with my barrel or if it has to be one of theirs (19-twist) to have them do the work? The 7* lead just might be my best option there.

I just drop tubed 89.5 grains of 1 1/2 Swiss in my unfire formed BACO .50-110 case. That is a good plenty figuring that 82 to 86 grains should be the sweet spot for long-range. I ran 85 grains in my .45-90 with grease groove to good effect. I am using 83.0 grains in my .45-70 with pp and that works well.

I have several .44 caliber molds hidden in a safe place. Now if I can just remember where that is there should be at least 2 maybe 3 pp molds on that box. The gg molds don't interest me much.

Ideally I'd have the 17-twist barrel with Shiloh's 7* chamber and BACO brass and that would keep me busy and happy for a while.

Does anyone have a drawing of the Shiloh chambers, both the standard and the 7*? I'd like to see the difference on paper.

[Hiwall55]

Me too as I am building a 44/77 on a Shiloh.

[Don McDowell]

I think you can get that reamer from PTG

[Nuclearcricket]

Jim, your numbers got me a little curious so I did my own test. I also used 1.5 swiss but its kind of old so the numbers may be off a little. A jamison case weighs 220.4 and hold 95.4 gr to the top of the mouth. A BACO 348 case weighs 215.8 gr and holds 99.6 gr to the top of the mouth of the case.
I don't have a Shiloh chamber drawing but do have the standard reamer print from PT&D. I have attached it as a pdf. While not exactly what your looking for, its something to look at and ponder.
Sam

  44-77 Sharps 6377.pdf (Size: 65.07 KB / Downloads: 27)