Spring Turkey with original German ML shotgun

[Rowdy Rick]

Rick, I was enjoying your shotgun and turkey pictures, but when you mentioned V.M. Starr that really got my attention. Mostly because I have 2 Navy Arms 12 ga. doubles that I had jug choked by Mr. Myron Olson who was a student of Mr. Starr. It's interesting how the names of the old masters come to the surface from time to time. And thanks again for the nice pictures.

Regards
IR

IR, How cool is that! Actually the friend that owned this shotgun gave me the booklet written by Starr. It is a good read, and the guy was definitely a Master of the Old ML's! I haven't shot a modern smokeless shotgun in 10 years.
First time I ever shot one was at a 4-H National leader certification for blackpowder. I had shot ML rifles for a long time but was my first adventure with a modern replica blackpowder ML shotgun double (Pedersoli) . One of my friends had an original Belgian barreled double and I traded him a sinew-backed double curved plains replica bow I made for him. The barrel was white from someone trying to remove the browning with Naval Jelly! Anyway I cleaned it up and browned the barrel and just have one lock spring left to make for it. Hadn't shot it yet, and I came upon a good buy on a Pedersoli 12 ga. so bought it and used it for several years. Then bought another Ped 20 and used it on turkeys the past two years. I used this original German double the first time to take a ML turkey 10 yrs ago and fell in love with it. Tough to find out good info on the old guns. One of my other good friends made a lock spring out of an old hay rake tooth for my Belgian but left the annealing to me which was a mistake at the time But showed me how to do it and know how to anneal them now, so will tackle that some day.

This shotgun patterns well with the left barrel at 25 plus yards but the right barrel is a little low and with a little more spread but I have not worked with it much either.

Nothing more satisfying than hunting with the old front stuffers..........except maybe using a BPCR rifle of some type

Rick

[Ironramrod]

Rick, I know exactly what you mean about having fun w/ these shotguns. I've been shooting them since the mid-70's on just about every thing that flies that's legal to shoot, and see no reason to change. I do use a 10 ga. semi-auto on the things like sandhill cranes and geese, but only because we have to use steel shot on migratory birds. We can legally use ML rifles here for turkey hunting which works out really well. BTW that German ML you have is a beautiful shotgun.

Regards
IR

[Rowdy Rick]

Rick, I know exactly what you mean about having fun w/ these shotguns. I've been shooting them since the mid-70's on just about every thing that flies that's legal to shoot, and see no reason to change. I do use a 10 ga. semi-auto on the things like sandhill cranes and geese, but only because we have to use steel shot on migratory birds. We can legally use ML rifles here for turkey hunting which works out really well. BTW that German ML you have is a beautiful shotgun.

Regards
IR

IR, you have a lot more experience than I do with the shotguns then! I used mine on pheasants to good effect. Had a couple of German shorthairs I raised that were great and held point well. The only thing better was seeing that cloud of smoke after you shoot . I do have a chrome lined 12 ga. ped ML double that will shoot steel but I have never tried it with steel, just wouldn't be right. One of the reasons I bought the Ped 20 double which did not have the chrome lined barrels.
I think the German double is somewhere in the late 1840's but can't confirm..........amazing something made that long ago is still working great today! Could you explain the "jug choking". I have read about it of course but never quite understood exactly how it worked?

Rick

[Ironramrod]

Rick, I certainly will. The jug choke was created in the barrel w/ a special reamer by removing steel from the barrel interior to create a shotgun choke (forcing cone for lack of a better term) starting just behind the bell at the muzzle and ending about 12-13" down the barrel. The bell, of course, is there to allow easier starting of wads down the barrel, and there is no need to remove that. Mr. Olson told me the maximum amount of choke that could be put into the barrel was determined by the barrel thickness; they would remove barrel steel so that the thickness in the "jug area" was not < 0.040". Then they would create a gradual taper (spanning 2-3") just behind the muzzle bell from the "jug area." The thicker the barrel steel the more choke they could put in the barrel. Mr. Olson told me that he had a jug choked 10 ga. ML that he loaded w/ 120 gr. FFg and 2 oz. of BB shot. When hunting geese he said he could stand by 1 REA power pole and shoot geese flying by the next one (100 yards). It doesn't surprise me, because I've shot geese at 70-80 yards w/ the 12 ga. guns I have. One can get a lot of opportunities to use a shotgun up here in the Dakotas.

The jug choke was put into the barrel(s) w/ a special reamer developed by Mr. Starr that was operated by hand (I think) from the back of the barrels. This then required that the shotgun had removable breech plugs or this apparently was not possible. I can also say the machining was done perfectly w/ nothing 2nd rate anywhere in the entire procedure; Mr. Starr and Mr. Olson were precision machinists to be sure. I have a short publication about jug choking barrels somewhere in the gun room. If I can find it I'd be glad to mail you a copy of it, if you're interested.

I wouldn't be surprised, if something is unclear; feel free to ask questions.

Additionally, if I remember correctly you run a buffalo hunting operation in your area. If that is correct, where can I read more about it. As an older boy, if I'm ever going to do something like that, I better get the lead out. I have several Shiloh rifles and 1 Browning highwall that thrive on live targets.

Regards
IR

[Rowdy Rick]

IR
Thanks so much for the great information! You did a good job of describing it and I understand it. Not at all how I thought they may have done it.
Everyone with a Sharps or BPCR rifle should hunt a buffalo at least once! Would love to have had you out here but unfortunately I had to retire from buff hunts due to health reasons (cancer treatments) which really drag me down. I am really going to miss the hunts (14 years worth) and all the great people I have met from around the country (48 of 50 states) and the many friends we have made, including many on this forum.
Rounded up and sold the herd the first week of April which was an experience in itself as they were never in a corral.......makes for some exciting times I will send you a PM re: some possible recommendations and advice on buff hunting. My last buff hunt for myself is a few posts down on the hunting forum, "the guide gets to go hunting" to give you an idea of what the sandhills here look like. I have dispatched a lot of buff, but this was the first occasion I had to plan a hunt and brought my wife along as videographer and camera lady. I have kept detailed anatomy carcass pictures from a lot of our hunts over the years which are really a great aid in determining shot placement. A lot of learned behavioral characteristics of buffalo. Most of our hunts over the past 5 years have been with BPCR rifles. Lots of advice to future buff hunters regarding that

If you talk nice to Mike on here maybe you can get him to send you a PDF file of Edition # 2015-1 of "The American Sharpshooter" , a great publication by the way of C. Sharps. An article by Dick Saveage of his buff hunt in 2014 here with his 45-110 c. sharps "old buffalo gal". Dick is a heck of a shot and also my mentor. Some good advice in the article on buff hunting as well. 100 yard between the eyes shot on purpose. Been trying to get him to do that for a couple years. He practiced a lot before attempting. I took a rogue bull with a between the eyes one time at 100 yards with my patch and ball .50 cal Hawkens after he put the chase on my wife and I. Head shots are extremely tough. Anyway probably more than you wanted to know

Just got back in from shooting my own C. Sharps 45-110 PPwith heavy barrel. Doing pretty well at 600 today.

Thanks again!

RR

[Kurt]

IR.

I took two of Ricks buffalo's, had to back out on one because I just did not have the strength and wind to walk.
Rick and His Wife Doris became very good friends and they ran a first class hunt. One time I took my Wife along because she wanted to experience a hunt and Rick and Doris treated us like we where family. Super folks! Doris cooked three big meals daily for us as she always does. I just cant say enough about Rick and Doris.
Rick is one of the top flint Knappers and a master of the wild and natural ways and the ways of the plains tribes and he spent a lot of his time showing me the ways of the old.
Again Rick, thank you for your friendship.

Kurt

[Rowdy Rick]

IR.

I took two of Ricks buffalo's, had to back out on one because I just did not have the strength and wind to walk.
Rick and His Wife Doris became very good friends and they ran a first class hunt. One time I took my Wife along because she wanted to experience a hunt and Rick and Doris treated us like we where family. Super folks! Doris cooked three big meals daily for us as she always does. I just cant say enough about Rick and Doris.
Rick is one of the top flint Knappers and a master of the wild and natural ways and the ways of the plains tribes and he spent a lot of his time showing me the ways of the old.
Again Rick, thank you for your friendship.

Kurt

Thanks Kurt,

I should tell everyone Kurt is my other mentor in the Sharps game! Dick told me one time don't ever try to keep up with Kurt in BPCR knowledge cause it isn't possible!........and he was right. But sure nice having two guys like that I can send all my questions to. Kurt and Carolyn are two of the nicest people you will ever meet and have become dear friends of ours. At our BRT shoot one year Kurt was back at Billy Dixon yardage shooting his .44-.77 with iron sights, in a 20-25 mph wind! I believe the group after getting on target was somewhere around 30 inches !! For the doubters I have picture evidence and witnesses!

A lot of good people with a tremendous amount of knowledge on Don's forum. Best BPCR forum on the web also!

Rick

[Ironramrod]

RR, Ya got that right about this being the best internet forum on the web dealing w/ BPCR in particular, but including black powder and other shooting venues.

In the way of a "jug choke" follow-up just a couple of things Mr. Olson told me in the way of shooting jug choked shotguns. He said to use card wads in the loads rather than the modern plastic cup type wads. The reason being is that the performance in the jug choked guns won't be as good w/ the cup wads as it is w/ the card wads as determined by examining patterns on paper w/ both wads.

Of course, I had to try that out and sure enough, the patterns were about 30% larger w/ the cup wads compared to the card wads. The result was I sold all my cup wads to a smokeless powder shooter, because I knew I didn't need them any longer.

The second thing Mr. Olson recommended was for hunting 100 gr. FFg and 1.5 oz. shot in the 12 ga. guns for best results. He said a practiced shooter should be able to pull feathers out of a pheasant at 35-40 yds, if you're centered correctly; turns out that was a "sho nuff", too. Of course, 100 gr. and 1.5 oz of shot is somewhat stiffer than what is needed to do some clay pidgeon shooting to stay properly "tuned up." However, for hunting that load is likely just about ideal in the "jug choked" 12 ga. guns.

Additionally, Mr. Olson sent me 2 patterns he shot w/ my 1st shotgun I sent him, both of which were shot after the jug choke machining. The loads he used were 100 gr. FFg, 1.5 oz. #8 shot and card wads. Both patterns (1 from each barrel) he shot on a piece of brown wrapping paper w/ a black spot in the middle at 30 yards. Both patterns had every shot pellet hole on the paper inside a 30" circle around the black spot. My first thought, when I saw the patterns was "Holy Macarel Batman", these are better than modern shotguns. Not only that, but they are more fun.

Anyway, just thought I pass along a few "jug choke" tidbits.

Regards
IR

[Rowdy Rick]

RR, Ya got that right about this being the best internet forum on the web dealing w/ BPCR in particular, but including black powder and other shooting venues.

In the way of a "jug choke" follow-up just a couple of things Mr. Olson told me in the way of shooting jug choked shotguns. He said to use card wads in the loads rather than the modern plastic cup type wads. The reason being is that the performance in the jug choked guns won't be as good w/ the cup wads as it is w/ the card wads as determined by examining patterns on paper w/ both wads.

Of course, I had to try that out and sure enough, the patterns were about 30% larger w/ the cup wads compared to the card wads. The result was I sold all my cup wads to a smokeless powder shooter, because I knew I didn't need them any longer.

The second thing Mr. Olson recommended was for hunting 100 gr. FFg and 1.5 oz. shot in the 12 ga. guns for best results. He said a practiced shooter should be able to pull feathers out of a pheasant at 35-40 yds, if you're centered correctly; turns out that was a "sho nuff", too. Of course, 100 gr. and 1.5 oz of shot is somewhat stiffer than what is needed to do some clay pidgeon shooting to stay properly "tuned up." However, for hunting that load is likely just about ideal in the "jug choked" 12 ga. guns.

Additionally, Mr. Olson sent me 2 patterns he shot w/ my 1st shotgun I sent him, both of which were shot after the jug choke machining. The loads he used were 100 gr. FFg, 1.5 oz. #8 shot and card wads. Both patterns (1 from each barrel) he shot on a piece of brown wrapping paper w/ a black spot in the middle at 30 yards. Both patterns had every shot pellet hole on the paper inside a 30" circle around the black spot. My first thought, when I saw the patterns was "Holy Macarel Batman", these are better than modern shotguns. Not only that, but they are more fun.

Anyway, just thought I pass along a few "jug choke" tidbits.

Regards
IR

IR, thanks for the great information. This is gold mine stuff! I load 90 grs. of GoX 2F in my Ped 12 ga. double using 1 1/8 oz of #5 shot. It has interchangeable chokes and was a deadly load on pheasants. I usually killed more birds than my friends with modern shotguns. Used it on quite a few turkeys as well. Shot one turkey with witness that was 45 yards with it. Always do head shots on turkeys. 2 years ago I used my PED 20 ga. which had built in chokes. I shot a turkey at a ranged 50 yards in head. I used 65 grs of GOX 2f and 1 0z of #5 shot and the full choked barrel. Used circle fly cards on both of those. Out here turkeys may be 5 yards or 50. The only trees we have are some shelterbelts. They call in better later, but am usually not able to hunt as much then. Both of these PEDs pattern very well. Would not try a long range shot with the German unless I did a lot more experimenting with it.

I probably should try a 1 1/4 oz or even heavier in my 12 ga ped but this load has worked really well.

Thanks again!

RR