Importence of the wad stack

[Kurt]

Gas cuts are death to accuracy. No matter how severe it is.
I spent several days a couple years ago testing the wad stack and alloy hardness to see what effect it has protecting the bullets from gas cuts and I found that it makes no difference if they get shot out of tight chambers or the standard, GG or PP or shape.
Hard bullets like 1/16 tin/lead or the bullets with antimony are more prone to get cuts if the wrong wad materials or to thin especially shooting hard PP bullets patched at bore diameter or a thousand under bore. The gas will cut through the patch if you don't have a proper wad stack.
The two bullets on top I wanted to shoot with out using a lube wad in a .45-70 case. When I was working up loads I was getting occasionally a couple flyers out of ten shots fired and a bunch of lead when I cleaned up. The wad stack was one card and one plastic wad under a bullet patched to bore and the bullet was 1/16 T/L.
When you look at that gas cut you can understand why it misses a 5 foot target at 800 yards. It will not only dig dirt but it will also go north, East or West. it just depends on what side the gas cut is on.

Kurt

[Don McDowell]

Those are some really neat designs/abstract art carvings in the sides of some of those bullets. How much do you suppose bullet runout might contribute to the gas cutting? What I mean is if the bullet isn't held relatively straight via some case neck tension, would that also contribute to gas cutting?
Glad you share these photos with us. Very informative .

[Kurt]

Don I think it has more to do with oversized chambers. I find this going on more with the standard chambers diameters then the tight chambers I use for the PP bullets only where a GG just will not chamber. But it is not a cure it will still cut with a bad wad stack.
Think about this once. You have a standard chamber and you are using a PP bullet that is patched to bore or even a thousand over. When you put a wad on top of the powder and the wad is easy to push into the case, or you might say loose, and when the charge goes off it pushes the case walls tight against the chamber wall the wad is even looser now and this gives the gas to leak past the wad. The same goes for a GG bullet. With a GG bullet that is a thousand over groove diameter or a little more I have found very few bullets with cuts. The bullets at .458 or the .40's that are .408 seem to get cut more before it bumps up in the case mouth. I don't know what a bullet with run out does as far as getting gas cuts, I have never checked this out.
A PP bullet with out a lube wad and a none expanding wad like a cork or maybe a felt wad has a good possibility for cuts in loose chambers.
I ran some felt wads last year in the .44 with a .023 OJ carton wad over the powder a lubed felt and a second .023" under the bullet and found a couple gas cut bullets out of 15 shot, just slight nibbles like a mouse nibbling at the base. But the felt wads cut for a .45 and used in the .44 I have yet to find one.
So far this winter I have over 400 in the snow. Not to see what is going on but just to blow out the sized down .45 basic to .44. But about 100 I want to see

Kurt

[Don McDowell]

What got me to thinking about the runout, is Roberts talks about the importance of having the patched bullet perfectly (or as near as possible) in the Muzzleloading caplock book. So then I see your pictures and get to thinking well ok, if the base of the bullet isn't set really flat and firm on the wad, the gas could possibly blow by the wad , cut the bullet (especially bore diameter) and get things off to a bad start..

[Kurt]

Don.

A long time ago I tried seating some bullets with a lot of runout they where greasers an only a couple looked like they had land cuts higher on the ogive ahead of the front driving band but I don't remember seeing any gas cuts at the base. It's pretty hard to get a PP seated with runout.
I loaded some PP with a hole on the side of the lube wad like a sickle moon seated over a thin poster wad about .012" and the lead went into that void and left a tail like a long wide fin. I don't remember what the mix was anymore. It don't take much to move the bullet base when the powder is set off.
But again the hard alloys are more prone to gas cuts then the soft alloys.

[Don McDowell]

I would imagine the harder alloys gas cut quicker, due to that millisecond longer it takes for them to bump up and seal the bore.

[bobw]

I don't see any gas cutting at all on my 45 2 7/8" loads because it has a tight chamber and I only use ppb's in it. .4485-.4450" patched bullets depending on the bullet or paper used. 1 in 50 to 1in 60 alloys, no nose slump designs and I favor cupped bases. The lube wad is the key, the gas simply does not get by it and I believe it provides a more even bump up than without it. My hunting ammo easily also serves as my target ammo, no mold of the month club member I keep it simple. My 50-140 has a std freebored chamber thanks to C .Sharps. I have learned to effectively deal with it by patching to groove and harder bullets 1 in 30 alloy still use a lube wad, still no gas cutting or leading resulting from gas cutting. I used the same Minutemaid Lemonaide carton material for wads in both, waxed cardboard .026" thickness 1 forward 1 aft of the lube wad that simple. I get enough 1 ragged hole groups to have convinced me of their potential. When I get less than this in grouping I don't blame my load, I blame my self. When target shooting I wipe 2 moist and 1 dry I didn't need anyone from California to teach me this,learned it by trial and error on my own. The lube wad is still there doing it's many jobs and keeping my fouling consistent is part of it and it makes wiping a breeze. Anybody can do whatever they want, this flat works for me. bobw

[powderburner]

I agree with Kurt in that the wad has to be a snug to tight fit in the case ,I found this out once when I got to the bottom af a sack of wads I won from cabelas and some of them were undersized , by 10 tho or so , they fluttered down the case neck and accuracy and everything went south in a big hurry. it took a bit to figure it out, but when I cut some wads my problem disappeared. so I keep a real close eye on my wad diameter any more .
I would rather have it cup in the case neck than be loose,

[Kurt]

Bob.

One wouldn't think a soft cup based bullet would get gas cuts but look at 5-7&8 from L-R those are soft 1/30 I use for that bullet with a thin lube wad and some a .447 felt. This is when I stopped using felt cut for a .446 and started using felt cut for the .458 for the .44's

[Gunlaker]

Thank you for the pictures Kurt. The one with the little nibble in the base is interesting. I figured that once a gas cut has started it wouldn't stop. That is an eye opener.

I have played a little bit with different diameter wads cut from a Cornell cutter. I have a cutter for .450, one for .45 Colt that, if I remember comes out at .454" or a bit bigger, and full sized for greasers at around .460". I did find light burn marks on the paper from the base for the .450" wads so stopped using them right away.

How do your lube wads hold up when the weather gets really hot? Mine are a mix of filtered beeswax and olive oil which shoots very well, but it has a low melting point and I worry that it'll seep olive oil if it gets too hot. I have shot with them at the long range gongs in Kamloops where it can get hot for up here, but to us hot is in the mid nineties. It works well there, but I'm careful to keep my ammunition cool. The barrel gets too hot to touch though which makes me think if it stays in the chamber too long I might run into problems.

Kurt I do want to thank you for continuously sharing all of the things you've learned. I do appreciate it.

Chris.