kal long range bullet

[bruce moulds]

for some time I have struggled with shooting bore dia pp bullets in greaser chambers, 40 cal & 45 with fixed ammo.
with so much to do, most of the work has gone to 40 cal for economic reasons.
I have tried thick brass. yes it works a bit, but is not a cure all.
I have tried the 7 degree thing, and while that eliminates lead and paper rings, it is not without problems either. the main one being that the gap presented by the transition is so long that the paper is often blown away at the base of the bearing surface. the way to minimize this is to use a softer alloy, which allows the bullet to bump into the transition quicker, thus protecting the patch.
this of course also allows the nose to come back more as well, reducing b.c. and increasing wind deflection.
the old rule that came to mind was that you need to fill an obturated case with bullet in the chamber, equally so for gg and pp bullets. if the bullet is already full size in the chamber it cannot bump up further on firing. this means that it will not allow as much bumpup in the transition as well.
with this in mind I contacted rick at kal, and he made a 2 diameter elliptical mould for me which is the work of an artist.
the larger diameter is 0.225 long, with a 7 degree taper at the front end, and then a patch to bore nose.
patched bullets can be finger seated in fired brass, with a groove dia base, and the rest of the bullet is a bore dia pp bullet.
patching turned out to be easier than expected, just making the patch a little longer at the base. it rolls on like a cone, and shrinks to the shape of the bullet as it dries.
first trial was at 700 metres where it held the best vert I have ever achieved.
the bullet is only about 0.1" in the case, with the change in diameter up against the transition/leade angle.
this assures very consistent coal, as that pushes the bullet back onto the wad.
the theory seems to work, but credit must go to the quality of the mould, and hence the bullets that come out of it.
how many of us have gone down the experimental road unknowingly using sub standard bullets and wasting our time?
from 700 metre(800 yds) on out is where issues start to arise with vert caused by less than perfect bullets.
of course this ammo is for specialized long range targets, and totally unsuited to hunting in general.
making the major diameter longer to go further in the case, and the smaller diameter smaller to allow chambering dirty rounds loaded with grease wads might be interesting.
keep safe,
bruce.

[Don McDowell]

Bruce I get pretty good accuracy from a copy of an original Sharps bullet that is a dual diameter. That wider base does help with paper rings and other maladies.
I also think that using a pretty stiff card wad and a felt wad under the bullet help to protect the bullet base.

[bruce moulds]

don, your bullet was among the things that sent me down this road.
of course if we all had proper pp tight chambers, the whole thing would be much easier.
keep safe,
bruce.

[Don McDowell]

Bruce I honestly think the "tight" paper patch chambers are a myth. The original Sharps 45 2.1 chambers would accept a government round ( bullet diameter specified at .458) just as easy as a patched bullet. Remington said to not try and reload cartridges to often as they would swell and become unusable with no way to make them smaller so they would chamber. Sharps also cautioned the same thing, and cartridges not fitting back in the chamber is what inspired Freund to come up with his "improvement" after he tried to force a reloaded cartridge into the chamber and got shrapnel in his forehead as a reward..You've read Perry's book and know what he had to say about reloading brass.

[bruce moulds]

don,
you raise good points.
the 45/2.1 was most certainly a greaser chamber. possibly your original sharps bullet was designed for that application.
were there different chambers fir match shooting and hunting rifles?
perry certainly commented on case life.
thank god for our modern day brass. it might not hold as much powder, but it seems to last if cared for.
of course if you breech seat, it matters not what your chamber is.
what was freund's improvement?
keep safe,
bruce.

[Don McDowell]

Bruce I do tend to think that the match rifles had different chambers than the sporters. I do believe they all had a shallow lead such as the 7* or 1.5 compound lead. Some original chambers have been measured with a 25*.. but today's saammi spec 45* is a pain in the butt for paper patching.
This original 50-70 will handle a .515 grease groove just as easy as a 500 patched..
Yes todays brass is way better quality.
Freunds improvement allowed the breech block to cam the cartridge in, and it also included dual extractors.

[bruce moulds]

don,
I have shot some of my best vert using fixed ammo in 45 degree transition chambers, but one in 10 was a dirt digger.
no way to win matches!
my next experiment with this angle is looking like 12 degrees.
the trouble with using bore dia patched bullets in a greaser chamber is having to size brass.
this wears out cases, and is more work, and does not seem to give max accuracy potential.
the 50/70 could well have been a greaser chamber in its original form.
keep safe,
bruce.

[Don McDowell]

Bruce I also know of an original sporter in 2 7/8's the owner claims shoots .458 greasers with ease...
I had the same problem with the occasional dirt digger, then Kenny's experimenting found that going from the 9lb paper to 8 lb, eliminated most of those.
Anyway back to your bullet. Please be sure and keep us up to speed on how that thing shoots for you.

[bruce moulds]

yes don we could talk all day and then some.
will report further.
enjoy raton.
keep safe,
bruce

[Kurt]

Here is what you get with the 45 degree chamber end. those rings are paper and lead rings shot with GG and PP bullets and the unsized cases where .005" short of the chamber end. I pushed those rings out after every shot fired except the long one on top was with two shots before running a rod through from the muzzle with a cotton bore mop.



Here is one that would have been a dirt digger. You can see where the lead ring rode with the bullet.
This particular bullet was deep seated using a slight roll crimp to see how far a bullet moves before they fully obturate.