.38-50 #2

[Steveu]

Kurt, thanks for the info, I am glad to see that they are putting out some better quality barrels.

[Kurt]

In the past I used their barrels building muzzle loaders and they needed some help pulling strings of the patches so I switched to the Rice Barrels.
I was a little leary getting this barrel but it turned out well. It looks good so far.

[Kurt]

Hi Arnie,

It has been quiet here since we lost Jim.

I hope I did the right thing with this. I got in a little hurry getting this rifle going for my Grand Daughters to shoot with me at Friendship. This is the reason that I had this build.
I really wanted to get a Hart or Krieger but the wait time was too long so GM had one in stock so I told them to send it. Dan put a GM 12 twist on my Hepburn and it has shot the best of all rifles and calibers I have after you designed the .359 DD bullet for it's .110" free bore that chamber has. That rifle has shot some very tight 5 shot groups at 200 yards many at 2 MOA and better. But this is anchored sitting on the bench. I just cant do it sitting on a stool with the cross sticks anymore.
The Hep barrel does not have the smooth bore this new GM barrel has but I havent had a chance to get all the brass fitting this chamber yet.
Time will tell if it will do as well as the Hepburn does.
This rifle I will most likely use the 371-445 DDEPP. The 371-359 DDEPP (now listed as 371-360" for some reason) it works in this chamber but I have to see it a little deeper and the brass is thick walled so I loose 3 gr of 2F but at midrange this is a no issue.
The weather has been very good this fall so maybe I can still get the brass uniformed and get a load for it.
I need the trigger time anyway LOL.

Kurt

[Kurt]

Went out again this morning and formed 63 new cases and I took a couple more with brass that has been shot 4 times now.
These were shot at 185 yds. The left 4 shots had a load of 60 gr of 2F OE with the 359 DD bullet and a Fed 210 GM primer.
The right 5 shots had 59 gr of 2F OE and a Fed 210 GM LR primer.
I think with these two day results with a slightly different loads it's holding pretty good.
I have 73 more cases to fire then I'm done forming this new brass and I will shoot some different ladder loads with different primers LR and LP and OE and Swiss powder 3F, 2F and 1.5F just to see the difference with components.
But when I get three groups close to a MOA I feel better after seeing a shot gun pattern.
Saw it again this morning.......Brass prep is needed for sure.............
Kurt

[Kurt]

Today I finished the third stage of forming these 300 cases. I fired 73 cases this morning for the final forming and I had a few that were short so I wanted to stretch them .15-20 thousands and get them trimmed for the proper length I need. I worked out by trial and error over the years how much neck tench ion and how to dampen the chamber enough to get slight stretching without over stretching the case and it works very good.
The 200 yard range was busy this morning with a 3 race gun match so I had to use the 100 yard range. Just as well for just forming brass.
I shot another shot gun pattern . Here is one target I shot at 100 yards. This really shows how important it is to properly work up uniformed brass.
There is really a big difference between this 100 yard target and the two groups above shot at 200 with the forth time fired.
I annealed 1/2 of the brass three times to get a faster full expansion. The third shot fired the brass extraction is tight when the brass is fully formed in the chamber. From here on I most likely never anneal again. I don't run the brass through a die again, sizing or just taper crimping.
Now the hard part, finding a good load coming up.

Kurt

[Kurt]

OK, I'm done!!!

The fire forming and case prep took some time. I fired this bess 4 times after blowing out the BN shoulders shooting trimming 4 times and spending time to uniform the flash hols to .077" the largest hole I found and making them all the same and deburring the holes inside the cases. I did not do anything with the neck thickness they were all .009" +- .0014" thick.
It was a lot of work but shooting this last test using different powder and primers I see the time spent was well worth the effort. I will say that this .38 caliber is showing that it's a very good caliber.

TNX Arnie for getting me interested in this .38-50 caliber.

I don't have a rifle other than the .38-50 Hepburn that Dan at DZ Arms build that shoots as well as this rebarreled CPA does. The original CPA just did not come around like it does now.

I loaded some Swiss 1.5F and 2F using the Fed 210 Gold match primers and some 2F OE with 2-1/2 Remington LP primers and Arnies design 371-359-DD-EE-PP bullet. I shot a few the other day using the .371-345-DD-E-PP but it did not shoot as well as the 359.
I will say that the combination using the 2.5 Rem LP and the 2F OE did not do as well as the Swiss 1.5 and 2F with the Fed 210 GM LR primers did.
From this ladder load start to finish I never made a sight change with all 4 shot groups I think any will work with the Swiss 1.5 and 2F with the 210 fed primers will do well at mid range. But I will find out when I get to shoot the match. I know that I will not shoot as well at the matches sitting and using the cross sticks as I do from the bench and sand bags but it wont be the rifle that fails from what I see with this last range session today.
The Weather was perfect for this work up.

Kurt

[JKR]

OK, I'm done!!!

The fire forming and case prep took some time. I fired this bess 4 times after blowing out the BN shoulders shooting trimming 4 times and spending time to uniform the flash hols to .077" the largest hole I found and making them all the same and deburring the holes inside the cases. I did not do anything with the neck thickness they were all .009" +- .0014" thick.
It was a lot of work but shooting this last test using different powder and primers I see the time spent was well worth the effort. I will say that this .38 caliber is showing that it's a very good caliber.

TNX Arnie for getting me interested in this .38-50 caliber.

I don't have a rifle other than the .38-50 Hepburn that Dan at DZ Arms build that shoots as well as this rebarreled CPA does. The original CPA just did not come around like it does now.

I loaded some Swiss 1.5F and 2F using the Fed 210 Gold match primers and some 2F OE with 2-1/2 Remington LP primers and Arnies design 371-359-DD-EE-PP bullet. I shot a few the other day using the .371-345-DD-E-PP but it did not shoot as well as the 359.
I will say that the combination using the 2.5 Rem LP and the 2F OE did not do as well as the Swiss 1.5 and 2F with the Fed 210 GM LR primers did.
From this ladder load start to finish I never made a sight change with all 4 shot groups I think any will work with the Swiss 1.5 and 2F with the 210 fed primers will do well at mid range. But I will find out when I get to shoot the match. I know that I will not shoot as well at the matches sitting and using the cross sticks as I do from the bench and sand bags but it wont be the rifle that fails from what I see with this last range session today.
The Weather was perfect for this work up.

Kurt

Those are some real nice groups Kurt! At nearly 200 yards! You’ve kinda set the bar for me now. I’ve been working with two problem rifles. One is a 45-90 that I believe is coming around for me since Matt sent me some of his DD bullets to try. It liked them well enough that I’ve sent a couple to Steve Brooks to have a mould made.
The other is the 40-82 that I nearly gave up on ( long story). It’s finally started to show some color since I tried(of all things) magnum primers!
I do my testing at 300 yards and look for groups of four to five inches.
I’m hoping the 45-90 will be my new LR rifle. The 40-82 is expendable but I must say, I’m liking the light recoil and I like the rifle overall.
Nice work Kurt! I’m inspired! Keep shootin’ those bug holes!
Jim

[Kurt]

Jim,

I don't get the results with my larger calibers that I have found with these two rifles. Maybe it's the lack of recoil, less muzzle jump or just things work right. Don't know....
What has me wondering is the tight groups are almost equal in size with 4 different powder loads and not much change of the impact hight. Yes the target was close but I don't have anything farther that I can set up the target so I have what I have. This might all fall apart when I shoot midrange or silhouettes and that will have to wait till next season to find out.
My .38-50 Hepburn has a Green Mountain barrel on it that shoot very well also and I think this GM barrel just might do well also down the line. This sort of puts me at ease with this move.

A while back curiosity got the best of me I had to see what different primers do with the same powder loads. I used LP, LR, LR MAG of different manufactures just to see the effects. The difference between the LR and LP using Fed and CCI there was not differences between them. Even LR Mag was close. But manufactures showed some big change, like using Rem,Wolf, Win or the Lellier&Bellot LR.

The largest over looked item shooting these BPCR is the composition of the alloy and bullet shape. This is where a lot of the down fall lays. The trend the last 25 years or so is using bullet designs from the HP low drag designs. I will stick with the blunter nosed and just screw up the elevation screw on mu sights.

Let me know your gains for the .40-82. It's been on my mind for a spell. I been seeing that it can be a little finicky....

Kurt

[beltfed]

Jim,
What 40-82 are you working with?
the Win
or The Crossno
Noted that Matt Steckel's Dad Mark has a 40-82 Crossno.
I designed a bullet for him.
Arnie

[JKR]

Arnie,
It’s the Crossno. Same one I as working with last winter. I sent it out to be re barreled to 45-90 but ended up buying Dick Schaff’s Meacham Highwall in 45-90, six months later. The gunsmith hadn’t got round to the re barrel yet so, not wanting two 90’s, I had him ship it back.
Last winter I was having trouble with case separations with the old, stretched, 45-70 brass that I got with the rifle. I now have lots of 45-90 brass and made new cases for it. The separation problem went away. Kurt and Brian Schwend had sent me a nice selection of bullets to try and it seemed to be shooting pretty well. Brian’s groove sized bullet was particularly interesting. If I were to go PP, this is the way I’d go in order to use up some of the case capacity. With the 16 twist this will not be a long range rifle, in my opinion. I’m currently shooting the Lyman Snover bullet and 66 grains of 1 1/2. I have a Saeco 740 mould coming.
As I said earlier, it’s coming around pretty well, and lots of fun to shoot.
Matt sent me some of his latest DD bullets to try in the Meacham 45-90. They shot great. I sent a couple out to Steve Brooks to duplicate. Steve made Matt’s mould. The bullets looks very much like Jim’s #6 but is DD.
I’m lucky to have the 500 yard range at Spooner to prove out my loads after I’m satisfied with them here at 300. Neal and I still shoot there once a week as long as the weather holds.
Looking forward to the 22 matches at Merrill.
Jim