Wisconsin Rapids mid-range match with my .44-77.

[Distant Thunder]

Gavin,

I will be chronographing the Goex load eventually, maybe this weekend. I would think 91 grains would scoot that 505 grain bullet along at 1300+ fps.

I did a quick check of my 2 lots of Swiss 1 1/2 and my Goex 2F just scooping the same volume of each and weighing them and there wasn't much difference, the 2016 lot of Swiss was 37.5 grains, the 2013 lot was 38.0 grains and the Goex was 36.5 grains.

As I said early I have had very good results with Goex 2F over the years at around 1/4 compression and I have read of other shooters saying the same thing. I'll need to try a few grains above 91 grains and a few below to see if more or less is better but 1/4" compression is usually a good starting place with Goex.

This morning I did what I usually do when I start shooting with a clean and oiled barrel, I ran one wet and one dry patch through the barrel. I do that at matches too. I was a bit surprised when that first shot went so low. I've had rifles before that take a round or two before they settle down. It looks like that will be the case with this one. I'm still learning with this rifle but I really like it. Once it settles down it tends to just stack one on top of the other and I'm not exactly holding a 1/4 minute either, I'm not that good.

It's good to hear that you had some success with paper patch. If ever there was a cartridge that God made for paper patching it was the .44-77! After shooting this cartridge for 2 months I have to wonder why it isn't more popular today and it's easy to see why it was so popular back in the 1870s. It has been very easy to work with and shows excellent accuracy potential.

[J.B.]

Interesting that there's so little difference in weight. A few years back I found discrepancies between lots that seemed quite marked to me. By as much as five grains or so for the same volume in lots that had two years between them. Even dropping to 2f or even 3f for the same year.. yielded lighter charge weights for the same volume which had been the opposite of what I had been trying for at the time. I tend to stay with the volume and compression across the lots but then I'm not getting the range time or testing to really give an accurate conclusion to any of the variances and I certainly cant hold 1/4 Moa either. Not enough to make it count at any rate. I started loading with Fed LR mag match primers quite a few years back but got scared off by people saying I might open up and loosen primer pockets. With 44/77 cases ..and even 50/90 and 40/70 cases.. I certainly didn't want that problem. I dropped back and settled on BR2's but I've an inkling I may purchase another brick of Fed LR mag and see how they perform. Touching off the bigger loads in the 50 they always seemed a good idea, although not essential but it would be interesting to see if they benefit the 44 also.

Gavin.

[Distant Thunder]

I was much surprised when the 215 primers shot well with that 2016 lot of Swiss. I have never used 215s with Swiss before, only with Goex. Maybe another primer would work better with my 2013 lot? I'm am having good and consistent result with the Goex 2F so I will work with it for now.

I am shooting some more Goex loads this morning. Little things can bother me and having 1 or 2 shots in 10 go high or wide is something I don't like. So this morning I decided to shoot 3 loads with everything else the same except I loaded 90, 91 and 92 grains of 2F. I shot 7 of the 91 grain loads on the thinking that it takes a couple of shots to settle in. Those 7 shots are such a copy of the 10 shot groups that I am convinced the load is on the edge of being too much powder and just starting to open up again like it can when you are past the sweet spot.

Then I shot the 90 grain load (5 shots) and that is a very satisfying group, nice and round and small.

And then the 92 grain load (5 shots) and that confirmed my thoughts about the 91 grain load. 92 grains doubled in size.

I'll post picture of the groups when I finish testing today. The wind today is wild and very gusty. I have to wait out some pretty nasty stuff to get something that looks good and then break a shot quickly before everything changes again. It's fun shooting like that and it's good practice for matches, which I need, but groups can suffer. This 441505EPP that Arnie designed is looking really good in some tough conditions.

I know I'm only shooting 220 yards but this rifle/cartridge continue to impress me with how this .44-77 can shoot. Because all my load testing and development beyond 220 yards is done at matches and those have been few this year it will take me until at least half way through next season to fine tune a Creedmoor load. I am very happy that it has gone so well with my .44-77. It has been the easiest cartridge I have worked with to get good accuracy with paper patch bullets, but a lot of yards need to be shot before I can know if it's as good as it seems at this point. It's a journey and I'm enjoying the heck out of it so far!

Next up for today will be trying a few other primers with the 90 grains load and confirming the accuracy of that load. Stay tuned.....................!

[Kurt]

Jim, What I see with my 17 twist Farmer is not so much the powder load that showed the groups shrink it is a good wad stack. I don't see much difference with a light powder load of around 78 grains to a full case up to the case mouth. But I see a change using a 1/16" dense cork gasket wad cut for the .45 caliber under the .44 bullet, but the cork does dampen the obturation of hard alloy when the bullet is a little undersized to the bore.
Seating the .45 cork I let the weight of the press handle sit on the wad for a few seconds while it's in the compression die and this keeps the tight wad forming a dome. I think the cork seals the gas faster then a plastic or thick fiber wads.

[Distant Thunder]

The wind only got worse after lunch and it was 20 degrees warmer than when I started shooting this morning. But first here are the 3 targets from this mornings test of 3 charge weights of 2F Goex.

   
The 91 grains did put one wide right as it has just about every time I shoot a group and 2 up high. An interesting pattern that seems to repeat.

   
The 90 grain load looked pretty good for 5 shots and gusty winds. I decided I would retest with 10 shots after lunch.

   
The 92 grain load started to show more vertical. I don't think I want to retest that load if 90 grains looks good in the retest.

After lunch I loaded 10 more of the 90 grain load same as above and 5 more changing the primer to Federal 210. There are several primers I should try but primers of any kind are hard to find right now and Federal 210 have work well for me in the past.

   
With it being warmer this afternoon and with the wind at 14 to 20 mph with gusts to 30 mph! I should have kept up with my fouling control, wiping, but I let things get to dry. After the 7th shot I wiped with 2 wet and 1 dry as I usually do. The dry patch felt tight going through the bore and had some black fouling on the patch. The dry patch shouldn't have any amount of black fouling on it, just a bit of grey is about right. Without thinking it trough I chambered the next round and raised the block camming the bullet into the bore and then thought about what I had. I gave some thought to ejecting the round and running one wet and a dry through to clean up the bore. That would most likely leave the bullet in the bore and I would have to tap it out with my wiping rod which would ding up the nose. So I just went ahead and shot it. Well as would be expected it dropped low. Later when I was marking the targets I noticed that shot 7 had dropped a little low too and then #8 dropped a full minute. If I had been thinking and paying attention I could have kept things tighter.

The other thing that shows in that target is the right to left wind I was shooting in, when I broke with a little too much wind the shots came in just a bit left, but my one flag was dancing all over the place and I was just happy not breaking one in a gust. There are 6 of the 10 shots in just over an inch and no high shots like I've had with 91 grains.

   
The 210 primers did not do anything that looked good. I may shoot some more with 90 grains and the 215 primers if I have time, but I do have a lot going on this coming week and the next week I'll load whatever I'm going to shoot at the match and do my best.

[Distant Thunder]

Kurt,

You'd have to school me on wad stacks. I don't recall ever having success with multiple wads unless I was using a lube wad with a card on top and another under.

I have used cork by itself and I agree it seals the fastest of any wad I've ever used. A single .060" LDPE has almost always been the most accurate for me.

By spring I will be looking for a way to load something like 75 or a bit more grains to develop a silhouette load. No need to load 90 grains of powder for silhouette! Creedmoor? It can't hurt and that was the original Creedmoor load in the .44 2 1/4", the original Creedmoor cartridge.

[Kurt]

Jim.

I never shot a long range match with the Farmer or the 19 twist Hartford. The 19 twist shot well at the Q just burning powder.
I have shot the .44-90 bn with the 19 twist at Lodi one year using the 1.453" long at 507 gr at the 2011 Lodi and came in 3rd with a 234/4 2 X on the 1000 2X on the 900 1 on the 800. I don't understand why I shoot the 900 and the 1000 better than the 800 but usually the 800 is my looser.
If I remember right you were 1st at the end of the first day Robert Waline 2nd. but the bottom fell out the second day for me that put me in 4th with a 457/5. Mike Teisen moved me down to 4th. This was the year Arnie shot the 99/3 at 800 with his .40

I used a parchment paper wad over the powder, 1/8" lube wad and a 1/16 cork under the bullet. That is what my notes say I used at Lodi that year. The parchment paper I loaded so I get maximum heat on the lube wad to make it break down faster so most stays in the home and not on the ground looking unused except for the land cuts on it's side

I really don't know why I don't shoot that 19 twist Shiloh Roughrider more but it sure eats the powder.

[Distant Thunder]

I know what you're saying. I've picked up lube wads in front of my shooting bench that look like a hamburger, a card on the bottom, a lube wads and a card on the top. You could even see the rifling on the sides of all three! In my .44-100 straight I used a waxed paper wad on the powder, a lube wad on top of that and a card wad under the bullet. That was the only way I could get it to shoot pp. That is also the only time I have ever used a lube wad. That was with a groove diameter paper patch bullet too. It shot pretty well.

A .44-90 BN should make an excellent Creedmoor cartridge and you wouldn't have to work so hard to get 90 grains in the case.

I don't want to have to use a lube wad in my .44-77 except in hunting loads for follow up shots. I will experiment with seating the bullet deeper in the case, 5/16 to 3/8". From what I've seen so far the .44-77 is very flexible on the seating depth. I would think a 2-diameter bullet with the forward section patched to .006 to .008" under bore and just a bit of taper would work out very well and still be able to fit a lube wad inside the neck length. That's this winters project. Well, one of them.

I'm probably going to just go with this 90 grains of 2F for Lodi and hope for the best.

That must have been May of 2011 that you are talking about. That match was my 2nd win at Lodi with paper patch in my Shiloh .45-90. That rifle shoots paper patch better than any other rifle I have, but I had to load 100 to 105 grains of 1 1/2 Swiss! That's just way too much powder. That is why I went back to the .45-70 when I built my Hepburn, 83 grains and you're good to go! A real pussy cat to shoot. Although my .45-90 is heavy enough that the recoil was never an issue with it either.

I am a bit surprised that this .44-77 is so easy on recoil for a rifle under 12 lbs. I guess I'll see in a couple of weeks when I shoot it for two days. That will be around 110 rounds in two day all at 1000 yards. That should tell me if my load, bullet and rifle are up to the task! I wish there was a practice day. Maybe I should bring a loading press and cases and powder and everything else incase I have to shift gears for day two! I don't have any idea what gear I'd shift to! Nope, I'll just load 'em up and head out, let the bullets land where they will.

[Kurt]

It sure would be nice if they would open the range the day before so one would have to shoot some loads to see what works with a new lot of powder or rifle.
I usually take three different loads when I go. There is usually enough time during the sighters to try a few shots with each. It's a shame one ¿ a match to test loads.

[beltfed]

Well, a person can shoot the Cup for load testing before the 6x1000 on the weekend.
Kurt, are you still Not Going to Lodi?

beltfed/arnie