Development of PP loads for the .44-77.

[Distant Thunder]

Kurt,

I have some orphaned powders, a half a pound of this and that that will never be used for anything else and some of my fireforming will have to be done with that stuff. I was just hoping I could find some that would be good enough to do some actual shooting with rather than just blasting it off. I play around the rest of today and if nothing looks good I'll just blow smoke and get these cases all fireformed then go back and start again with fireformed cases.

This bottleneck thing is a bit different than most anything else I've worked with. The case start out so undersize they don't look at all the same once they are fired! A new .45-70 case goes in the chamber a .45-70 then you fire it and it comes out a .45-70! These go in like a .22 Hornet and come out like a .22 K-Hornet! Quite a difference.

[Don McDowell]

Jim, if that bullet your shooting drops at .431 diameter, I can just about guarantee that you're not going to get the accuracy you're looking for. Been there done that... .434 or just a touch larger is where the vertical stringing starts to go away.

[Distant Thunder]

Don,

That may be and that is another area I'll need to explore. I'm not going to worry too much until I get these cases fireformed.

[Don McDowell]

Yup get all your cases fire formed and then you can go to work getting serious about the nice round groups at close range, and very little vertical at distance.

[Distant Thunder]

Tested the following:

450 gr. BACO 431ADJ
.060 LDPE
78.0 grs. Goex 2f '07
Hornady brass
Federal 210 LR primers

6 inches of vertical.

Next up.

520 gr. BACO 431ADJ 1.425" long
.060 LDPE
78.0 grs. Goex 2f '07
Hornady brass
Federal 210 LR primers

   

I must have miss calculated when I came down with my scope setting because the first shot went under the target. So I came up and I guess I've got a ways to go on this scope, any scope really, the next one was at the top of the cardboard. That like 30 inches! So I shot the next one to the same place (very close to it). Since I only had 3 of each loaded I now had to decide if I just skip that load and move to the next or go back to the house and load one more and shoot it hoping it hits the target. Well, I just had to know! I loaded one more. The darn thing went in the same place! So 3 shots in 2 7/8 inch. That's the best yet.

Next up.

So I came down for the next load. Too far again, now I at the bottom of the paper! Good enough! Those 3 then went into 4 3/8 inches.

530 gr. Sharps style bullet
.060 LDPE
78.0 grs. Goex 2f '07
Hornady brass
Federal 210 LR primers

   

[Distant Thunder]

Now I have 50 fireformed cases and may a little bit of an idea of what this rifle might like. Pistol primers may not be in it's future and it did generally better with the heavier bullets.

I still have another 200 cases to fireform and I'm not sure I've found a way I like, though I have found one that works really well, BP and PPB.

If I use a 450 grain bullet with 76 grains of BP to fireform 200 cases that will result in 13 lbs. of lead and a little more than 2 lbs. of powder being used. I suppose that's not too bad. It has also become clear that trying to combine fireforming and load development is probably going to prove to be unworkable. I'll probably just fireform all my cases and then start some serious load development.

I need to find the lightest possible bullet to fireform with and use my miscellaneous powders that have no other use.

I'll be back!

[beltfed]

jim, I presume you have tried smokeless powder and corn meal for fire forming?
Maybe good enough for first time around?
Also, Perhaps you could devise/weld up a bullet trap for your 200 yds range so as to at least recover your lead.
Or Mine the backstop.
Arnie

[Gunlaker]

Jim, I'm just curious... Have you ever had plain Goex work well with bore diameter pp bullets and just a 0.060" wad? I have never been able to use plain goex and get good accuracy unless using a lube cookie. I think the plain goex must have a very different burn rate than Swiss 1.5 or o.e. 1.5

Chris.

[Distant Thunder]

Chris,

The short answer is yes I have. When I was first working with my Shiloh .45-90 (standard chamber) I use a good bit of the same Goex 2f. I was working with different bullet designs, wads and seating depths.

It goes back to my first .44 caliber back in 2003-2004, it was supposed to be a .44-77 and I got talked out of it because of brass. It ended up a .44-100 Remington straight. I went through a lot of bullets of different designs and almost an entire case of Swiss 1 1/2 ($$$) trying to make it shoot at long range. I learned a lot from the rifle, ROT and bullet length was one thing. I also learned that a 2.6" case holds a lot of powder with shallow seated paper patch bullets. The rifle did eventually did shoot well for silhouette and mid range. It had a 18-twist barrel and short, blunt bullets were the only thing it shot well.

So when I finally made the successful transition to PPB in my .45-90 I wanted to avoid all the mistakes I made with the .44-100. Once I got pretty good accuracy using Goex and had what I felt was a workable bullet design I switched to my usual match powder, Swiss 1 1/2. I feel I saved at least several pounds of my good Swiss by doing the early work with Goex. The .45-2.4 with hold 100 to 105 grains of 1 1/2 Swiss, it does not take long to burn through a pound of powder, only 66 to 70 shots. And with that rifle I wasn't fireforming, my cases had already been in use for a few years.

The BIG mistake I've made here is in trying to combine the much needed fireforming that the new .44-77 cases require and any attempt at load development. I guess I was just too excited to get going after waiting 11 months for this rifle to get done.

It would be best if the readers of this thread didn't read to much into the load development as described here. I don't see how any real development can happen until these cases are fireformed. If you've ever seen a new, unfired .44-77 case and one that is fireformed completely there is a BIG difference! It's not like your .45-70 where the case blows out another few thousandth of inch. It is a radical change in case configuration! That can't be good for accuracy. In fact, the cases I have fireformed require 10 grains more powder to fill to the same level! 76 grains vs. 86 grains. That a big difference in the cases!

Just to be sure, this Goex 2f has shot well for me in my .50-70, .40-65, .45-70, .45-90 and .44-100. Not as good a Swiss in all cases but pretty darn good. I did find I had to use a grease wad in my .44-100 with bore diameter PPB to get the best accuracy and I was happy to use it because it reduced the powder charge and recoil to something manageable. That is the only time I have used a grease wad for target loads and there it worked well.

[Distant Thunder]

Arnie,

I did try the smokeless and COW idea and it blew out the shoulder on the very thin Bertram .45 basic brass and only the shoulder. On any of the thicker brass, the Jamison and my converted .300 Win Mag brass, it did even less. I quickly concluded that if I was going to have to fireform a second time with black powder why bother with the smokeless fireforming. I think a bullet is required to get enough pressure. The brass has to expand out a bunch to fill the .44-77 chamber.

I am exploring another option this morning. I'll let you know.