Re-Barreling a Shilo

[JKR]

Steve,
Now that I know your background, I can see that you know what a good bore should look like. I am also in agreement with you that a barrel like yours should never find it’s way onto an expensive custom rifle. I’m often surprised at how defensive Shiloh owners get about this company.
When I was getting started my mentor encouraged me to use the 45-70 with PP. I took his advise and have done well. My load clocks at 1325 and shoots very well. My rifles are Shiloh and C Sharps. This PP load works equally well in both although the Shiloh is a bit on the light side for a LR rifle.
If I were starting over on a LR rifle solely for LR, it would be a Highwall in 45-90 with a 16 twist barrel.
JKR

[Don McDowell]

I shoot pretty regular with a Highmaster fclass shooter. He has a terrible time getting used to the difference in the need for fouling control, follow thru, wind mirage and all the rest that won't make a 168 gr smk even blink, but makes a 530 gr lead bullet puke its guts out. He doesn't shoot a Shiloh... Have seen a number of fclass and palma shooters start the game, then quit.
45-90 is an excellent choice for an all round cartridge, maybe not as good as a 44 2.4, but there's still the brass shortage that will go on for a very long time. The rifle that has the crown for wins at the Desert International is a box stock Shiloh 45-70.

[JKR]

Yes, there’s a learning curve to BPCR just like any other shooting game. It taken me a while to get over the tendency to under correct. There’s also other things to learn that aren’t like any of the high power venues. Making bullets for instance. But remember, the guy with that High Master card has been competing in the top ten percent nationally. He’s at the top of his game and he got there because he learns quickly. If he chooses to stay with a new discipline, he’ll very likely become a top shooter.

A decent barrel is very important toward this end.

JKR

[Don McDowell]

Also a clover leaf group from a 30 cal wont take as much paper out of the target as single 45 bullet
I believe the best bet is to use that Douglas barrel on a complete build
If that Shiloh shoots well it will sell in nothing flat and cover a large portion of the build
In the mean time use it to learn how to cast good bullets and load good ammo. Attend some real matches where you can see just what’s going on instead of banging away at a gong and hearing the spotter say I think that one was between the white and the edge or I didn’t see it but the flasher went off

[DirtySteve]

Well these are the types of responses I was looking for. Also some of these boards for this type of shooting sees only a little bit of postings during a weeks time. So I try to get some folks posting to keep interest in our game. I hope KWilliams chimes in here. But I digress..

I shoot only paper patch bullets. Greasers give up too much in aerodynamics for me to want to consider those. Our rifles shoot too slow to begin with, and the PP bullets use less elevation than greasers. I shoot a mix of cast and swaged bullets. my neighbor and I went in together on a swaging set up from Dave Corbin. I will buy a mould if we or just myself wants to try something different. If I find some merit I cast him up some to try. If we both agree the juice is worth the squeeze we buy swaging dies. For example we started with a .442" tampered round nose bullet like they used back around the 1870-1880's. We now use a more "pointy" straight sided bullet of .445".

As far as the wind goes I cheat at a match. lol.. If I see shooters, especially shooters I know are hitting right. I increase my hold or setting a tad more because good shooters got it wrong so I learn to make bigger adjustments off their shots.

I have both Shiloh and C. Sharps rifles. So one being down won't put me out of the game. I want to get this type of shooting figured out so I can buy a rifle with pretty wood and have both scope blocks and open sights as my go to rifle.

[Don McDowell]

Bullet length diameter and paper are super important. In an 18 twist 45 barrel anything that goes over 1.4 inches long will give you trouble in a crosswind and go plumb bonkers in a fish tailing tail wind
Fouling control is paramount
I firmly believe more good patched loads have been passed over because of fouling control methods than not
Sticks and position behind those sticks can throw some monkey wrenches at you as well
Once a person finds a good patched load even the thoughts of having to lube greasers is bad

[Kurt]

Steve,

What did you guys end up with the Corbin swage equipment?
I started swaging back in the 60's because I could not buy bullets I wanted to shoot in the DCM matches. I never shot the F class, but I shot bench rest. Now I cast 95% plus but I still swage mostly for the .44 calibers. I also use the .44 caliber swaged bullets for the .45 caliber by knurling the bullet to increase the diameter to use a bore diameter PP for the .45. This works very well and the knurl smoothens out so there is no drag that I can see by elevation loss.
The swaging cores I now get from cold cast bullets. Running them through the point form die with a blender hole or through a core swage die they come out the exact weight.
The two shells in the center. The bottom is knurled up to .446" for lubed groove diameter. Or you can swage or cast .44 increase it for the .45 bore diameter PP

There are a lot of options swaging. But I'm about to a point where I don't do it anymore because of the excellent moulds you can get now days that will rival the swaged.

You will do well with this black powder madness and yes it gets frustrating at times but it will also put a smile on your face. Just don't start chasing your tail like a dog getting at a flea.

[DirtySteve]

Kurt, We got the Mega Mite press. That thing is a big chunk of steel. We bought one set of swaging dies for our first bullet the .442 tapered one. We have a second one ordered and on the way soon that is .445. I have a core mould and cast the cores my neighbor is nuts on thing being precise does the swaging. He makes our original bullet at 500.0 to 500.3 grains. anything lighter he tosses in the cull pile for me to remelt. I told him plus or minus a half grain would be fine and he said no this just takes one thing out of the equation. We must shoot perfect bullets. He in an old aviation mechanic so thing must be right with him.

I use Brooks and BACO moulds. No complaints with either. However I like the placement of the hinge for the sprue plate better on the BACO moulds better. You have to swing it more but I think over time there is less chance of warping than putting it at the corner. In reality it is probably not an issue but it is just my preference. I keep my cast bullets to with in plus or minus a half grain. Which is not too hard to do. I use my Magma Master Caster and just pour using a ladle instead of the bottom pour. Having a 40 pound melt makes for a long casting session. lol.. I used to shoot NRA Action Pistol Matches (Bianchi Cup) and would cast a years supply of bullet every winter (10-12K) that machine was a time and money saver eve while being hand operated I could crank out bullets with little effort.

The knurled portion on your fired bullet did not smooth out like I would have guessed. It smoothed it out enough to minimize drag but I was guessing it would have be perfectly smooth.

Steve D.

[DirtySteve]

Don, The twist rate on factory barrels is one reason I wanted to re-barrel to a 1-16. Things just can not be stable enough when going so slow over a great distance. It was a factory problem in the 1800's and still is today. Some manufacturers these days are catching on but others refuse change.

Steve D.

[Don McDowell]

An 18 twist barrel with a good bullet will shoot very well to 1000 yards and maybe a bit beyond. That's been proven many many times. But you will have problems trying to shoot bullets over 1.4 long.
The 16 twist does work well. It is gathering a good following, a lot of the folks that are ordering new Shiloh's and C Sharps are having that option done. There are no shortage of MVA actions being sent to custom makers to be fitted with 16 twist barrels, and CPA has had the option of a 16 twist Douglas for at least 10 years.
I agree the ODG's tried to compensate for the 20 twist guns of the day by going with heavier powder charges to make the long bullets work.