Powder compression

[Kurt]

I'm sort of laid up with a very sore back with not much to do. So I will bring this out for discussion to get your feelings on powder compression. Clean burn? more efficient burn? or what ever.

Back when I used a lot of Goex I always felt I needed more compression to keep the fouling down in the bore. I did not go after increasing the velocity but I wanted a clean burn and small groups on the paper. But what made the small groups as compression was increased????and why did the ES & SD's vary so much with the compression increases after a point.
Below are some pictures of what compression looks like in the case with different levels of compression starting with .050", .100", 200", 300", .400" and .500".
I also took fast frame photo's of the different levels of compression what the burn look like at the muzzle, but I lost a lot of those I did not get backed up when the computer took a dive.


[URL="http://s704.photobucket.com/user/Kurtalt/media/IMG_0613.jpg.html"][/URL]

[URL="http://s704.photobucket.com/user/Kurtalt/media/IMG_0611.jpg.html"][/URL]

Here is the burn with minimal compression using the .50-90,

[URL="http://s704.photobucket.com/user/Kurtalt/media/44bastjpg-1.jpg.html"][/URL]

And here it is with .500" compression. a lot more smoke and the second frame showed a long red line going through the smoke. That is one of the pictures I lost.

[URL="http://s704.photobucket.com/user/Kurtalt/media/44b.jpg.html"][/URL]

No compression .44-90 bn rifle
[URL="http://s704.photobucket.com/user/Kurtalt/media/P1070565-1.jpg.html"][/URL]

High compression. .44-90 bn
[URL="http://s704.photobucket.com/user/Kurtalt/media/P1070325-3.jpg.html"][/URL]

Is it the hard unburned powder of a heavily compressed powder load that pushes out the fouling that leaves a shinier bore or is it some other factor??

Kurt

[powderburner]

I have a pic of my friend at night with the 110 and the muzzle flash is 12 ft,long ,this with a heavy compressed load , it burned clean.but the barrel would get hot to the muzzle ..
an uncompressed load will shoot as clean with the right bullet ,wad stack but the barrel only gets hot to the rear sight, I think it has more to do with the seal of the bullet in the bore and the amt of pressure built than anything else/

[Martini2]

Hello Kurt, It is cool and wet here in Midwest too. So I'll speculate on this combustion think. Essentially were talking about a confined burn of fuel/air mix. There does exist a test used to determine the BTU content or release of components, believe it called "Closed Bomb" test. The key thing is the heat and rate of combustion is quantified. Such a test would yield measured proof of loose VS heavily compressed charge of same weight. Empirically your photos (very good) show less smoke with less compression however are there any other details you gathered like chronograph data to illustrate charge efficacy? Also would it be possible to spread a white sheet under path of rifle fire to check for ejected unburnt powder etc. I suspect these photos do show like you say the packed charge may be driven out of barrel in part adding to the visible smoke. A paradox maybe that the hot end of the highly compressed charge burn slightly more efficient thus still increasing velocity or scrubbing previous residue from bore. Veeery Interesting

[Kurt]

M-2

Most of my experiments are just curiosity's when I want something to do.

A lot of what goes with this compression thing is lost because I failed to keep it backed up and lost the stuff when the computer died.

Yes I did do some chronograph readings from zero compression to .600" to see if any gains in velocity stops. I did not see a negative below zero compression. What I did see was a slowdown in the amount of increase and then again a slight increase like a dip. I ran this with Goex, Goex express, swiss, Schuetzen, Diamond. And they all basically showed the same results. Swiss had good groups with minimal compression but again when the compression increased.
But what I was really after doing this and that was to see what the effect was for fouling. And yes I see a lot of unburned powder on top of the snow or ice when I shoot in the winter. More so with heavy compressed Goex.

[Klaus]

Hi Kurt,

thx for this topic and the efford you have done to show what happen with different compression levels.
Nice and exporatory Pics also.

i`ve not a experienced shooter like you and the other fellows due to the lack of long range and the opportunity of Matches,Shilhouttes or any others here in Germany.
So i read a lot of Books and in serval Forums to acquire experience in Black Powder Loading and Shooting for me and my short ranges.
The question of Compression seem to be a neverending story and i feel that the thruth will never found.
If i remember that Paul A. Matthews often wrote in his Books that less compression with attention of no damaging the Powder Kernels are necessary to get a good and clean burn but he also told that the old US Goverment Loads are filled with a full compressed Mass of Powder.
in a old Sharps Catalog i read ... loading your Match Cartr. with Powder, set a Cardwad and gently press it down on the Top of the Powder mainly take care that you don`t crush the Powder. Finally set the Bullet with your fingers....

For me i have not found any difference in claen burning on different levels of compession but however on different kinds of Powder Brands.

will keep your further results carefully

thx and regards
Klaus

[Kurt]

Hi Kurt,

thx for this topic and the efford you have done to show what happen with different compression levels.
Nice and exporatory Pics also.

i`ve not a experienced shooter like you and the other fellows due to the lack of long range and the opportunity of Matches,Shilhouttes or any others here in Germany.
So i read a lot of Books and in serval Forums to acquire experience in Black Powder Loading and Shooting for me and my short ranges.
The question of Compression seem to be a neverending story and i feel that the thruth will never found.
If i remember that Paul A. Matthews often wrote in his Books that less compression with attention of no damaging the Powder Kernels are necessary to get a good and clean burn but he also told that the old US Goverment Loads are filled with a full compressed Mass of Powder.
in a old Sharps Catalog i read ... loading your Match Cartr. with Powder, set a Cardwad and gently press it down on the Top of the Powder mainly take care that you don`t crush the Powder. Finally set the Bullet with your fingers....

For me i have not found any difference in claen burning on different levels of compession but however on different kinds of Powder Brands.

will keep your further results carefully

thx and regards
Klaus

Klaus.
A lot of the fouling I find varies with the different manufactures. some are harder and heavier. One thing you might try to compare the amount left behind in the barrel is to shoot the powder and PP bullet with out any lube. This will be a better way to see what is left behind with out the lube catching the fouling. You will see a brighter bore if you don't use lube if the shot is fired from a clean bore.
To test the fouling when it was shot through a clean unoiled bore is push a dry clean patch through after that first shot through a clean bore and have a news paper under the barrel to catch what the patch pushes through and also look at the patch and pat attention how moist and the amount or fouling is on the patch and what fell on the paper. Compare it with different powder.
Usually the more fouling that stays on the patch the more moist it burns.

You have to do this shot for shot through a clean dry unoiled barrel with no lube.

Kurt

Klaus.

Ich wurde in Magdeburg geboren. Wie weit sind Sie von dort?
Und haben sie die Stadt seit dem Krieg wiederaufbauen?

[Klaus]

Hi Kurt,
thats a very good idea , next time i will run a trial .
Currently i use the Wano Brand Sporting Powder FFg Granulation.
it burns far moister than Swiss Brand
A Good Brand are KIK
Old Eynesford is not available here in Germany

Let you know my results

Magdeburg . Cologne 280 Miles around

yes, Magdeburg was rebuild after the WWII
All Towns are rebuild finaly, sometimes not with the same Charme and Character as the old Building has got have before.

Magdeburg was detructed much after the Town was striked by 31 BombRaids
In 1938 are 330.000 Citizen lived in Magdeburg in 1945 only 90.000
Around 70 % of Magdeburg are damaged completely

for a today trip you can visit http://www.magdeburg-tourist.de/ change on top for english laguage

when did you and your family move over to America ?


Klaus

[Kurt]

Yes it was a bad time. My Mother took me to the bomb shelter many times. My Grandfather and one uncle and aunt stayed in the Haus and where killed.
We settled in Groß Germersleben after getting bombed out and my Mother and I came over in 1951.

Thank you for the link.

Kurt

[Klaus]

Hi Kurt,

yes it was a very bad and sadness time.
it was a good idea to move over the US in 1951 because in 1961 the Wall was build and the DDR was born.
and nobody there are enjoy the BPCR Fever...

By the way,pics above showing your home terrace ?
if yes it is impossibile to do the same here at my place and unbelievable for the most here .....

Klaus

[Kurt]

Klaus,

Yes it is my front porch. I have 120 meters from it. I can shoot 200 if I shoot past the house before the land drops off on the back side of the hill.
Have to move a little snow this time of year or the walk to the target gets a little rough