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44-77 44-90? - Gunner500 - 04-22-2018
I've been looking at Shilohs in 44 cal, why on earth do they only offer them with 19 twist?
I only shoot heavy for caliber bullets in ALL my Sharps rifles, what's the heaviest bullet a 19 twist 44 cal barrel will stabilize?
My thought was at least 500 grains in 44 cal, with 520-530 even more so.
Thanks in advance for replies and experiences,
Gunner
RE: 44-77 44-90? - Don McDowell - 04-22-2018
Depends on how far you shoot. With the 44-77 up to 500 grains will shoot fine to around 600, sometimes further but they are on the verge of instability at that distance and any crosswind will deal you fits.
A bullet just short of 1.3 inches long (460ish grains) will shoot just fine to 1000 from the 44-77 Shiloh barrels.
It's also important to keep in mind the bullet that kept the 44 as the king of the hill in the hide hunting days was 1.1 inches long, or roughly 410 grains. Also due to the smaller diameter of the 44 bullet the sectional density goes up when compared to the 45 caliber bullets of the same length. The 44-77 lost the #1 chambering in the Sharps rifles only due to the amount of Borchardt military rifles chambered in the 45-70, and the score was very close at the end of Sharps production.
RE: 44-77 44-90? - Gunner500 - 04-22-2018
Thanks Don,
No match shooting for me, main use will be for hunting, good to know about at least 460 grains, a good stabilized heavy hunting bullet will do for me, a self imposed max hunting range of 500 yards will cover anything I'm likely to ever encounter.
Shirt button bullets would surely be a waste of time for me with the big 77 and 90 cases, those, imho are tailor made to heave heavy bullets.
Historically factual and all, I could never drop to 410 grains in 44 cal, heck, my dinky historically incorrect 40-65 fires 400 grains at 1388, it is a little missile.
RE: 44-77 44-90? - Don McDowell - 04-22-2018
Well keep in mind that the 40's from back in the day ran an 18 or 20 twist and the heaviest bullet's used at that time were 330 gr in the 40-90 bn, and it had a great reputation on the high plains.
Don't sell that 1.1 inch bullet in the 44's short, it'll shoot fine to 600+, and they haven't built anything of flesh and blood that can contain one on a broadside hit.
In one of the old Sharps catalogs there's a letter from one of the hide men and he tells of using his 44 to shoot thru and kill 2 buffalo bulls at one time at 500 yards.
RE: 44-77 44-90? - Don McDowell - 04-22-2018
I should also mention that those piddly little 1.1 inch bullets when pushed by a case full of OE 1 1/2 or 2f, will be doing right at 1350 at the muzzle. Even 480 gr bullets with a case full of KIK 1 1/2 will be a tad over 1275.
RE: 44-77 44-90? - Gunner500 - 04-22-2018
Good to hear all that, me being relatively new to the game, and learning to stack every conceivable odd in my favor to punch through any game animal, regardless of the angle presented.
I do know:
50-90 and 750 grains at 1363 fps.
45-110 and 530 grains at 1398 fps.
45-70 and 530 grains at 1244 fps.
40-65 and 400 grains at 1388 fps
Have never let me down in the hunting fields, I owe the animals that and much, much more.
RE: 44-77 44-90? - Gunner500 - 04-22-2018
My thought of a big 44-90 BN with 17 twist 30" barrel chunking 510 to 520 grain hunting bullets spun up good and tight to 1400+ fps would be a real barn burner of a hunting setup, bucking the hell out of the wind to boot.
RE: 44-77 44-90? - Kurt - 04-22-2018
Gunner.
I most likely spend more time behind a 19 twist .44 bottle necked cartridge rifle then a lot of shooters. The 19 twist works very well in a good bullet weight range. One cant really go by weight when it comes to matching the bullet to the ROT. A hard bullet will be of lesser weight then a soft say 1/25 for hunting and it's shape of the ogive. You can have a money type that is 1.430" long that has a weight of 507 grains and a hunting bullet like the almost round nosed original type they used in the late 1800rds. that weight 537 gr.
The bullets I settled on for the 19 ROT .44-77 that works well at all ranges I have shot it at including 1585 yards is a PP 485 gr at 1/20 tin/lead that is 1.325" long and it has been used on two Bison's with good results. And I have shot a 520 gr 1.410" long at the Q and I had no problem staying on that 805 yard buffalo using it. But the 485 gr 1.325 with the original profile is my go to bullet for the .44-77 and also the big brother .44-2-5/8 bn. The .44-77 I put 3 shots high through the lungs I could cover with my hand on a buff and a finishing shot behind the ear. The other Buff 2 put him down with two shots through the lung just above the heart.
The .44-2-5/8 BN will take a heavier bullet with the 19 ROT and I shot one Buff with it using this same bullet and it hit at the same spot through the lung just above the heart and he trotted about 50 yards when he collapsed. If I was to get just one hunting rifle it would be the .44-90 BN hands down even when I had a hunting rifle build with the .44-77 chamber. The .44-90 bn is Thors Hammer when it comes to putting large game down in fine shape.
I have two Shiloh rough riders in the .44-90 bn caliber one with the Shiloh chamber and the second I had a reamer cloned from a original 1877. I pulled the barrel off with the Shiloh chamber and put a heavy .44-100 Rem 17 twist on it but that is coming back off and the original barrel will go back on it.
The .44-90 BN will stay on a 1000 yard iron 10 out of 10 using a 1.4" long original profiled or a .44 postell that is like a reduced .45 postell.
The Sharps Rifle Co listed a 520 gr for the .44-90 at 1.13/32 long that is almost 1.5" long and they were slow twist. The thing with the 19 twist is be selective on the ogive shape. Don't expect a money bullet to shoot in it. Stay with the original profile and you wont regred it at any distance you want to shoot it at.
Kurt
The only problem now is getting good cases for either caliber.
RE: 44-77 44-90? - Gunner500 - 04-23-2018
Kurt,
All good info, I appreciate your experiences, and Yourself and Don sharing your knowledge, the 44's have long held interest to me, the problem with getting cases may be a game changer, may have to try and make due with what I have.
As far as long range steel shooting, how would my 18 twist bull barreled 45-110 Shiloh firing the 570 gr AA Smerker bullet at near 1400 fps do as a target round? provided accuracy is there of course.
I only chronoed a couple of loads with OE FFG, didn't shoot for groups, also have to wonder how that bullet would act as a hunting round, I have 200 sticks of 45-110 brass.
RE: 44-77 44-90? - Gunner500 - 04-23-2018
BTW, recoil is not a factor with the 16# 45-110, it kicks less than my 10lb #3 sporter in 45-70 from the bench.