My continuing efforts with the .44-77.

[Distant Thunder]

Now that this forum is back and working I figured I would bring things up to date in my efforts to get my .44-77 up and shooting with match winning accuracy using paper patch bullets.

Back in November I played around trying to develop a hunting load that would allow some number of shots with good accuracy without wiping between shots. That hasn't gone real well and I put it on hold for now.

In December my new mold of the month arrived and I was like a kid at Christmas! This one was another BACO mold, they do make good molds. The number is 430520 though I requested it to cast at .431" diameter. While the sample that came with the mold is .431" all my bullets came out .4305". This bullet is close to the old Metford design of the 1870s that gave rise to the modern money bullet in use today. I very much like the old designs.

I started out seating it .330" in the case over 80.0 grains of Goex 2f. My thinking at this point was to reduce the powder charge to reduce the fouling that I was having trouble with in this rifle at Lodi back in September.

Using my Leatherwood 6X scope the above load produced 5 shot groups at 2 1/2" to just under 3" at 220 yards (my home range). Increasing to 82 and 84 grains did pretty much the same. After a number of groups with Goex I was noticing that 3 or 4 shot in 5 would be clustered pretty tight and 1 or 2 would be a inch to an inch and half away and not always in the same direction.

I figured it was time to give Swiss 1 1/2 a try. I started with the same .330 deep seating and loaded 77 to 83 grains and the groups were nothing special, mostly under 3 1/2" at 220 yards. Then I remembered the bullet that first peaked my interest in this kind of design.

I looked in my notes and found that I had loaded some bullets I got from Kurt to try, these were from a Sagebrush mold of similar design and they shot very well. I had loaded them over 86 grains of Swiss 1 1/2 and seated them .150" in the case. I shot these at Rapids back in July and they did very well at 600 yards.

It turned out that I had some of these loads with the Sage bullet left over and still in my ammo box. I setup and shot them at 220 yards and they produce a very tight 10 shot group. I saved one cartridge and used it as an example to load my new bullet the same way.

So I loaded some to a length of 3.555" so they were only in the case .150" over 86 grains of Swiss 1 1/2 with a Federal 210 primer. They shot pretty well. So I tried some 10 shot groups. I noticed I was getting 1 or 2 of the ten that were again 1 to 1 1/2" outside the core group! I was starting to think I must be pulling those shots. Nothing I tried in he way I hold the rifle would eliminate the flyers.

The more I thought about it the more I thought that it had to be that the bullets were a bit undersize and not at all snug when I pushed them into the bore of my rifle. I decided to fix the problem one way or another. I setup and machined the shank of the bullet bigger. I was hoping for something between .432 and .433 for my as cast diameter. When I cast another batch they came out right at .432". I patched some with my 9 lb. paper and they came out at .439" and were pretty tight in my bore. This is exactly what I wanted.

Then I took my push through sizing die and polished it out to size just a tick over .438". Now the bullet were uniform and smooth as silk with the fold over ironed out flat as could be. This is how I do my bullets for my .45-70 and they work!

I have shot a number of 10 shot groups since I opened up the mold and the flyers are gone! Groups settled in nicely at just under 3" to about 2 1/2" for 10 shots at 220 yards. This is good, but I'd like to be closer to 2" for 10 shot if possible.

So yesterday I decided I had gone as far as Federal 210 primers were going to take me. It was time to test some other primers. The problem with that is with the hording going on and primer being very hard to find anywhere near me I would have to work with whatever I have. The choices are limited. So I looked over my notes with this .44-77 and decided to try two types, Federal 215 LRM and and Remington 2 1/2 LP.

I use the Remington 2 1/2 LP primers with Swiss 1 1/2 in my .45-70 and .40-65 with very good results. I only shot 5 shots with each yesterday but attached is what I got. If the Remington primers hold up in the testing I hope to do tomorrow I may be on to something. I'll let you know.

[Don McDowell]

That 2 1:2 primer load looks pretty good

[Kurt]

Jim,

I know Don mentioned the 2-1/2 rem pistol primers often. I tried them several times of different lots and I never seen anything smaller than a double O buckshot through a barn door at 20 yards with all my different calibers and bullets. I ended up finishing them with the pistols.
The best I have had results with are the Fed GM150M.
But I cant argue with the results you showing.

[Don McDowell]

Kurt I don't think I've ever mentioned the rp pistol primers, not sure I've ever even owned any.
I have found in my rifles the RP 9 1/2 primers have shown the best results with OE with br2 being a close second.

[Old Jim]

Any luck with 210Ms in BP loads?

[Distant Thunder]

I got out today to do a more extensive test of the Remington 2 1/2 LP primers in my current .44-77 load. The details are on the target. I shot this target also as part of the winter postal they are running on another forum so I need to explain it a bit.

The match is being done at 200 yards because most shooters have access to that distance. My home range is 220 yards (200 meters) but it's just a fun match and a few minor details are not all that important. The targets are scored using the string method were every shot is measured from the center of the target to the center of the hole then you total that distance for your ten shots. Because being close to the center of the target is important I use 3 sighters and then on the same target shoot my 10 for record. I plot each shot including the sighters as I shoot them and later number the holes on the target along with my math, which I have screwed up a couple times and kind people have pointed it out for me.

I shot the 3 sighters and since they were in the rings I didn't make any changes to my scope until after the sighters. I corrected left 1/2 minute and down just a touch. My first 4 record shots were low so I decided to come back up a touch. The next 3 went into the 1 inch center ring. Then #8 went low and right for reasons I can not even guess. I thought maybe it was me. I made no sight correction and the last 3 ended up forming a very nice 1 inch group to the right. Even with that the 10 shot group ended up at 2 1/4" at the widest. The first 7 were in 1 3/4" even with my up correction after #4.

All things considered I'd have to say the 2 1/2 primers are shooting pretty well, near minute of angle.



So now I think I'll put this rifle up until warmer weather and then I'll work on my fouling control and get ready for the matches this summer.

[Don McDowell]

That's a very nice group Jim.
I haven't paid any attention to the postal match on Shiloh, is everybody shooting the same target?
Either way that group is likely going to be tough to beat.
Back when I got my first 44-77 was about the time that Goex quit Express. I had been running cci pistol primers with it, so I just continued on as I developed loads for the rifle with KIK. Soon tho that rifle showed a nasty tendency to eat firing pins. I quit the pistol primers and don't think I've lost a firing pin since.

[Distant Thunder]

Don,

No, everyone is not using the same target. That was reason we went with the sting measurement, any target will work. I just print out the ones I'm using and I can see the bullet holes through my spotting scope very easily. Any target that you can see will work.

Pistol primers:

I have been using them in my Hepburn for something like 6 years now and my .40-65 for 4 or 5 years and I haven't had a problem in either rifle. As I do with those two rifles I will keep a close eye on this Shiloh to be sure there is no problem.

I do modify my firing pins to work better with Pistol primers, but would not recommend it to anyone else. I started doing this mod when I built my Hepburn. I had an idea while I was making the firing pin and wanted to see if it would work. I'm still testing the theory.

I really think my .44-77 is shooting with sub-moa accuracy using the pistol primers, but I only have one wind flag and it is down at the target. I had a light left to right wind while I was shooting today and the flag was out a little and never really changed, but I think it may have picked up somewhere between me and the target on those last 3 shots. I had no way to see it if it did.

[Don McDowell]

I know 2 or 3 very good shooters that use the 2 1/2 primers consistently, neither of them use a Sharps, but are shooting hi walls custom built. Maybe they modified the firing pins on those? Don't know, but I do know it's going to be an uphill fight to best them on the score board.

Awe yes those little devil winds, maybe unseen thermals,, lots of things can wreck some pretty good groups that aren't seen until after the bullet impact shows up.

Jim as you spend more time, and tweek the loads a bit here and there, you may end up wondering why you need any other cartridge.

[Kurt]

Jim,

Looking at the picture of your range.
With that narrow field of fire with the trees so close the head and tail winds would throw a wrench into the works. I don't think your bullets are going anywhere near over the trees.
A bullet gets most of the drift change the first 1/2 to 2/3 from the start.

From looking at all of your targets your rifle is a fine shooter. Even with different times out with different load components it's holding MOA or very close.
I only have one rifle comes close but it's not where you are that I use that will do what your shooting and that is the CPA .45-90. My .44-77 Farmer I have not shot enough to know what it can do as well as my .40-65 tight chambered CPA and I have seen groups at 2" or less a few times but not as consistent as your holding.
If that rifle holds like yours at 220 yds it will hold well at the 1K baring wind calls.