.44-77 bullets for a 19-twist barrel?

[Distant Thunder]

I just want revisit the 19-twist .44-77 idea again to help me clear up some of the stuff that is keeping awake at night.

My guess is that with a 19-twist .44-77 you would be limited to a bullet not over 1.320" OAL, but what do you guys with .44-77 Shiloh rifles find works or doesn't work and out to what ranges?

I know this is the paper patch forum but I'd like to hear from any grease groove shooter too. 19-twist is the same for either bullet.

How much does a 1.300"+/- .44 caliber bullet weigh? How far can you count on it to shoot well? Will it hold up out to 1000 yards? Even in the wind?

I don't see a problem with that length bullet for mid-range or silhouette matches so I guess I'm just wondering about 800, 900 and 1000 yards.

Please give the details about the bullet(s) you're using. What length is it? Who made the mold? Mold number? If PP, what diameter and paper are you using? If GG...., well I'm sorry to hear that!

But really, if GG, how are you working around the seating depth with the neck length the .44-77 has? Reduced diameter drive bands? Fewer grease grooves? Thinner wads?

I don't ever remember thinking so much about a caliber choice as I have been doing with this .44-77 project. The other calibers were very simple in comparison. It's little wonder I got talked out of it 12 years ago when I first had the itch for a .44-77!

The difference is, this time I'm not giving up! I will have a .44-77 when the smoke fills the air!

Thank in advance for your help!

[Don McDowell]

I had Brooks build a 1.3 in greaser in his original postel nose, it weighs right at 455 from 20-1, and while I didn't shoot it a bunch, it does hold up well at 1000/\.
That bullet also is almost a dead ringer for the original Ideal mould I have, but that thing drops at .450 diameter, and is just to much sizing to get to .448 barrels.

1.3 is the maximum length in the 19 twist 44-77 that will shoot dependably to 1000. Longer will work at shorter distances in the 77, but creates problems beyond 800 in the wind.

[Kurt]

Jim,

I will come right out and say with the 19 ROT you will be limited on your choice of bullet profiles. I have several moulds for the .44's mostly for the larger capacity .44's like the .44-90 BN's and the .44-100 Rem Straight. The ellipticals I have shoot very good in the 17 and 16 ROT and also in the 19 ROT .44-90 bn. but they fail in the lesser capacity .44-77 at long range.
I have two ellipticals, one from KAL and a prolate I had Steve Brooks cut and they both shoot in the .44-77 out to the 600 yard iron at the Quigley but go crazy at the 800 Buffalo with more misses then hits.That bullet is 1.453" long and weIGHS 487 GR with my alloy. I have not shot paper with this bullet past 200 yards using the .44-77 but I have used it in the 19 ROT .44-90 BN and the 100 and it placed me high at Alliance. Infact I hit the 1000 yard iron more than the rest.
For my .44-77 you shot I use the original Sharps profile or the Metfort I swage and I have a Brooks adjustable mould I had him clone the original profile.
I tested those at different lengths all the way to 1.445" at 520 grains and it stayed on the Quigley Buffalo using the scope on the .44-77. I settled on a 485 grain 1.328" long and I have used that bullet past 1000 yards with good results at Baker Montana during the week before the matches. That range has some of the wildest winds and updrafts and that bullet held in very good.
I know you want to use this rifle for long range but maybe you can work out a elliptical and get the shank ogive balanced to stay stable with the 19.
I have no problem with the original profile. It will do it's job at the 1K line with the 19 twist.
When you get this rifle in hand ask me and I will send you some moulds of different profiles to see what will do what you want.
I have greasers also in the MB nose as well the postal........Just ask. You are one of a few I would loan my moulds to.

In the end instead pulling out the rest of your hair I have a .44-90 BN reamer that will let you shoot just about anything

[Distant Thunder]

Don,
What you said is pretty much what I have concluded from my reading and following your posts.

Kurt,
I really don’t know what I’ll end up with here and it seems I’ve pretty much jumped in a bit too quickly. I still have a few things to sort through and I’ve been talking with Kirk and I’m sure we’ll work it out.

The path of least resistance may well be to just have Shiloh put one of their 19-twist barrels on my rifle and enjoy it for what it is. I don’t know that shooting it at long-range is a must. There’s nothing wrong with my .45-70 Hepburn and if I really want a chance at winning a match that is the rifle I would count on, every time! I would likely give a .44-77 a go at long-range just say I did it and see what happens.

The .44-77 is just something I want to play with while I still can and I figure I’d have enough time to really enjoy it. In my view it is the coolest paper patch cartridge there is. It’s been several years since I had the challenge of getting a “new” rifle up and running and I guess I’m due. I feel I would enjoy the heck out of it regardless of twist rate as long as it will shoot reasonably well. It would not be my first choice for Creedmoor, but it sure would be a good one for silhouette, gong matches and mid-range too.

I’ve got several .44 caliber molds tucked away is a “safe” place and if I ever remember where that is I’ll have plenty of things to try in whatever twist I end up with.

I was just looking to confirm what I could expect from a 19-twist and I knew you and Don would give it to me straight. I am leaning toward more of original design in bullet for this rifle anyway, I just think it would be better.

I really appreciate the offer of the molds to try and I may take you up on that. Let’s see how this all shakes out first. I really enjoyed shooting your .44-77 at Harris and if it had been for sale I’d have bought it right there. It’s a sweet rifle!

Shiloh has my action and the 17-twist GM barrel I sent them, but putting that barrel on my rifle is more complicated than I realized and it would be much easier to just go with one of their barrels (19-twist), but no decision has been made yet, we’re still talking.

I’m thinking that if I can make an 18-twist .40 work, I damn sure can make a 19-twist .44 work. I just may just have to design a bullet (or two) to fit the rifle and the purpose. That’s the really fun part anyway.

I’d still like to hear from other Shiloh .44-77 shooters as to what they’ve experienced with different bullets.

[Kurt]

Jim the 19 will work just fine. Don't cut it short it will do both the silhouette and Creedmoor. When you cut the mould make it adjustable and keep the ogive on the blunt side and the shank longer than the ogive radius and it will put a smile on your face.
I put the scope blocks on mine last night and I might head down to Friendship yet this fall and use it for the silhouettes. I like this rifle and it shoots very good but it's not a prone rifle with the crescent buttplate but I shoot sitting always anyway so it's not a problem. It's a fine off hand weight rifle as it is.

[Distant Thunder]

It seems everything has been worked out between Kirk and I.

I’m going to stay with the 17-twist Green Mountain barrel and Kirk will get it done for me. It may take a bit longer because I didn’t understand what Shiloh’s requirements were, but that’s not a problem I can wait.

I had some trouble getting answers from Shiloh at the beginning, but once I got on the same page with them it has been good.

I would suggest to anyone wanting to have Shiloh put a barrel other than one of their own on your Shiloh rifle do yourself a big favor and call them and ask what they require barrel wise. Don’t let it slide, get an answer and then do as they say. It will save you a lot of head scratching.

So with a 17-twist I will have a good choice of bullets and a backup rifle for Creedmoor. If this rifle works out as well as I hope, I plan to shoot it as much as possible. The down side of that is it will leave my .40-65 in the back corner of the safe more than I would like, but I can only shoot one rifle at a time.

I am hoping this .44-77 turns out to be my most versatile bpcr, covering everything from 200 to 1000 yards, from gongs to silhouettes to paper. With a good chance of doing some hunting also. All of this will be done with paper patch bullets of course. What would the point be to have a rifle chambered for the sexiest cartridge and then not use the sexiest bullets! What a combo, the .44-77 with paper patch bullets. Loooooong paper patch bullets at that! Is this a great sport or what?

[Kurt]

Be aware of the man with just one rifle

[Distant Thunder]

"Be aware of the man with just one rifle", this from a man with how many .44s?

I don't know anyone with "just one rifle", all my friends are afflicted with the same malady as I am. I'd hate to leave this life and not have played with as many rifles as I can get my hands on. Sadly, finances don't seem to keep pace with my dreams. I'll just have to tuff it out as best I can with what I have.

And besides this isn't a "NEW" rifle, I'm just "RECONDITIONING" an old one. At least that's the way I sold the idea to my wife. Of course she just rolled her eyes and laughed. It seems after 40 years she's got me figured out pretty well. The reverse however is not true, I'll never completely understand women! They are very complicated creatures and I think they are from some other planet!

[Don McDowell]

Jim either way that rifle comes either a Shiloh barrel or your GM barrel, you're going to like that chamber.
I'm really pleased with the 434470 BACO bullet wrapped in 55y in the GM barrel I had a Shiloh fitted with and chambered in 44-90 st.
I still have plans on one more Shiloh #1 in 44-77, and I wouldn't hesitate a moment to take it to something like the NRA BPTR nationals where you shoot both midrange course of fire and the long range. Just have to be mindful of the bullet length..

[Kurt]

Darn Jim, You made me do it I'm sending my .44-77 chamber reamer print in to get it made.
I think this will end up a High Wall with a light 32" 17 ROT halve round barrel.
I didn't want to do this, but you made me do it LOL.