Let's talk TRANSONIC!

[bobw]

In 1874-1875 time frame 1874 Sharps Creedmoors were chambered for the 44-2.25 and the 44 2 5/8" SBN's with 1/19 twists using long heavy ppb's that had nose shapes on them that more resemble what people using hunting these days. They operated at the same velocity range of today also. They sent the Brits and Irish packing in defeat. More than a few record scores were posted back then. You guys going forward? maybe going backwards would get you forward faster.? Food for thought, don't get your blood pressure up over it. Yeah sunk deep into winter here too. bobw

[Don McDowell]

Interesting find by Research Press a while back. They came up with some patched bullets from Winchester for the 45 caliber sharps for Creedmoor. They look amazingly similar to the money bullet BACO mould. Diameter of the bare bullet is .446, patched diameter .451, and they are made from 14-1 alloy. Those go a long ways toward explaining the "long pointed" bullets that were quite often listed in the equipment list of the shooters in Perry's book.
One of the things that helped me greatly in getting the 44-77's to shoot reliably at long range, was an original bullet pulled from a Sharps factory Creedmoor round. Turns out it is 1.3 inches long, weighs 460 grains, and is .438 diameter. It was easy to see that the round was seated almost 1/2 inch deep in the case. I had Brooks duplicate that length bullet in a bit smaller diameter and things started holding together at 1000 reliably in the 44.
I've said for years that altho we think we know alot, we're just about back to what most teenagers knew in the 1870's and 80's.

[Kurt]

Hi Bob. Hope all is well on your end.

Bob I shoot in the past mostly but also in the present.
Freezing rain here about a 1 1/2" on the gravel drive. Went to the range to shoot the postal match figuring I would have the range to myself but the electronic gate was froze shut.
Rain is turning to snow right now. It will be a fine mess with the snow over the ice.

[bobw]

Don, at Denver SCI show a few years back I bought an original 44-2 5/8" round 520 gr ppb it was loaded with 105 gr of Fg a card wad a grease cookie and 2 cards over the cookie under the bullet. It was the 44 2 5/8" Creedmoor load from Sharps/UMC. Like the Special long range 550 gr 45 ppb for the 2.6 and 2.4" loads it had the deep cup base. Numerous Sharps authorities from the those years maintained that the deep cup base with a twisted up pigtail in it caused sometimes erratic flight and/or "dirt diggers". Others said that occaisionally they would find a ppb downrange that had the tail of the patch pushed up into that deep cup and stuck there. If one subtracts off the depth of the deep cup base from the overall length they were pretty short compared to what a lot of guys are using today. I think that it explains how they got by with less twist than is used today coupled with the blunter ogives on the 44's. So what I'm saying is if a guy buys a new 44 today he needs to use yester year bullet designs or have them put in a tighter twist for today's bullet designs that are cutting edge ogives and advances. Kurt has found this out the hard way.
Kurt , I believe that like the sun coming up in the east and going down in the west a guy who has buffalo meat in his freezer needs to ration it burger wise so in the winter with the occasion of crappy weather he can make a pot of buffalo chili and let it snow and be damned .bobw

[Kurt]

Well Bob you saw what happened at the MT 1000 that was the difference between the ODG's bullet and the new modern wizzzzz nosed bullets.
only got 50% on the first three targets switched to the ODG's on the last and they hit all 10 including the first sighter. I only raised the tang 3 MOA before taking the first shot.
The ODG's bullet worked when the winds get squirrly

[Don McDowell]

Bob have you put that bullet on the scale to check the weight?
One thing I think folks get twisted around is the "weight" when in fact it's not the weight that makes the difference, it's the actual length. Pretty good example of this has jumped right out at me trying to get this 40-70 to shoot something consistently. The only bullet that I could count on to maintain accuracy in all conditions was the .400 diameter 360 gr patched bullet. It would shoot the 415 gr money bullet well until the wind picks up then all bets are off. So when I had Brooks cut me the dual diameter bullet, I spec'd the base at 400 diameter and the nose at .394, and the length at about half way between the 360 and the money bullet. Thinking that if the 40-70 wouldn't shoot it maybe the 40-90 would.. Well don't you know that the weight of the dual diameter bullet altho a good bit shorter than the money bullet is about 10 grains heavier cast from the same alloy. But the best part was the other day shooting it, the winds were running pretty much a full value left right at 15-20 mph. That condition would of sprayed that money bullet, if not some of them hitting the target sideways, but this new bullet shot a pretty consistent 1 -2 moa at 600..
It also pays well to not get to wound up with "the old style" bullets. Todays Money and similar pointed designs aren't that far off of the Gibbs and Metford style bullets, and a dead ringer for the "long pointed" bullets. Towards the end of the Creedmoor era, flat base bullets were the ones getting the job done, altho there were two methods of patching that base, and there was some discussion amongst the shooters between what weight of paper served best..

[bobw]

Yeah , Kurt I'll never forget that run and hearing Carolyn say to you " don't touch the sights just hold the same every time" She sure had you on there and you held up your end of the stick 100% too. That is the neatest part of the match, when everything is clicking with you and your spotter. Yeah I weighed that 520, the thing is on our flat and lightly cupped base bullets are measured from nose to bottom for length, on those old original deep cupped base bullets were measured the same but in effect were shorter if you just measure the axis length (point of the nose to top of the cup). Isn't it in fact the rotational length of the bullets axis vs it's total length that is needed for twist calculations? So what I'm saying is if you measure total length of the old ones and try to make new style bullets the same total length you end up with a same length bullet as the old one but it's heavier and actually longer along its axis right? Well? bobw

[Don McDowell]

You could get what maybe 3-4 grs. 10 grains at most more lead in that cavity? It's still a matter of length and diameter.
I have a couple of nose pour adjustable moulds, utilizing the "original postel" nose, with a cupped base, and yes you can still get a bullet long enough to not be dependable at distance in windy conditions.
Not all the bullets that the ODG's shot were hollow based, many were flat based. The equipment lists provided in Perry's book show that, as do those few remaining samples of bullets from Winchester, Gibbs and Metford. Nose shapes have changed little over the centuries.
Interesting find's when you read some of the old stuff, you have to pay pretty close attention and you'll find some real gold items. One example is in the 1875 Remington catalog , they say flat out that weighing each charge, and thorough cleaning between each shot, will help keep you from second class shooting. They go on to tell how the use of hardened alloy will improve long distance accuracy. Then they go on to some rather dry typical advertising stuff about how it's much easier to attain first class shooting by using their ammo, but if you want to reload your own they'll sell you the patched bullets, and if you really want to do it all on your own to cast the bullets from pure lead with a bit of tin added, "maybe 3/4 ounce per 16 oz of pure lead".
The letter from Bodine to Sharps reprinted in Seller's book is also another one of those ah haw moments.