just took my own advice

[bruce moulds]

and ordered a new mould from baco.
you really can't have too many.
0.396 pp elliptical 415 gns.
not optimum for my 13 twist, but will mainly be used at 200 yds, so don't need to take advantage of the b.c. potential of the twist, which can handle up to 1.550 long.
it will patch to 0.001 over bore diameter, purely for breech seating in scheutzen matches.
the 40/72 will be droptubed full with 85 gns of powder, a 0.060 wad, and an airgap of about 1/8" between wad and bullet.
the 40/60 maynard would be superior fir scheutzen due to reduced recoil, but this is what I have and long range is the priority.
still much easier to shoot than the 45/2.4 filled with 100 gns powder and a 545 gn bullet.
keep safe,
bruce.

[Semtav]

Good luck with that Bruce. The airgap theory is kinda interesting.Let us know how it works out.

[bruce moulds]

semtav,
it will work.
previous testing with an out of round produced group after group with 1/2 moa or better vert at 100 in the 40/72.
similar in the 45/2.4 with a good bullet, bur recoil was a little severe to keep this up.
similar moa at 200 for both guns.
there are fclass guns out there that find this hard to replicate.
also demonstrates the accuracy potential of good iron aperture front and rear sights when they suit the aiming mark.
bpcr accuracy takes on a whole new meaning when that airgap comes into tune.
and with the local style of scheutzen you have time to do it.
keep safe,
bruce.

[Semtav]

Im trying to picture how I could incorporate that in to a groove patched load. Since I do run my bullet in to the rifling a little ways, I might experiment with chambering the load and seeing if I can extract the case without the bullet coming back out and then putting a new cartridge in that was compressed a little more. Kinda a poor mans breach seater until I see if it works.

[bruce moulds]

semtav,
with bore + 0.001 bullets, I can use a palm seater.
for groove diameter bullets, a weber type seater would work better.
bullets would possibly slide in better lubed with tallow?
make no mistake, when you get that gap right you will be impressed.
all my scheutzen friends do this with greasers at groove diameter.
mostly 38/55. this chambering often requires a smaller airgap than 40 and 45 cals.
you might try starting the bullet as you suggested, then finishing it with a case containing a wooden plug which extends 1/8" past the front of the case.
an important consideration is not to bump up the bullet as you drive it in, so using a hammer might not work.
keep safe,
bruce.

[Semtav]

just tried it out tonight to see if I could seat a bullet without damaging it. I'm using a Winchester Mirokou 1885 45-90 with a little freebore. Plus I cam the load into the rifling a little ways. I pulled the bullet and inserted a 1/8 inch .429 wad in the case and inserted the bullet back in the case. Then cammed the cartridge in the rest of the way with a camming tool I use from Steve Rhoades. I then extracted the case, removed the wad and reinserted the case. Everything felt like it was fine. Removed the case and tapped the bullet out with a wooden dowel. Everything appeared fine with no paper tearing. Rifling on the paper showed it was in the rifling 1/4 inch so I guess I was originally loading it 1/8 into the threads. I'll have to give a couple rounds a try at the range one of these days to see if the extra effort is worth it
Brian

[Semtav]

The only thing I'm concerned with is if this airgap is safe and one wont ring a chamber?

[bruce moulds]

semtav,
while you are breech seating, you are not going the full monte.
the idea is that the case is full, with the wad level with the top of the neck.
in the 2.4" case you will droptube about 100 gns of swiss 1 or 1.5.
the gap is then in front of the chamber.
I would guess that from chamber neck diameter to freebore diameter would be about 0.012 per side.
I would start with the base of the bullet this distance in front of the case, and shoot groups increasing the gap in 0.010 increments, going out to 0.150 gap.
starting the bullet as you do would allow you to finish seating with steve's pusher and increasing length wooden plugs in a case.
in all cases these plugs would extend past the front of the case.
I intend to experiment later putting a felt wad in the airgap, as this would possibly reduce the chance of ringing.
I do suspect that suspicions of ringing using this technique come from urban myths.
local scheutzen shooters have been doing this for over 100 years and happily continue to do so.
shooting against them with fixed ammo is a futile exercise.
keep safe,
bruce.

[Semtav]

OH. mine were still in the case quite a ways. that would take quite a bit of pressure to get a groove Dia bullet all the way past the case mouth. As it was, mine was still at least 1/4 inch in the case.

I can see where that would eliminate the paper going over that 45deg transition at the end of the case mouth and eliminate paper rings etc. should be interesting. I guess with the right tool one could get a bullet of groove dia seated all the way in the rifling

[Kurt]

Semtav

When you use a cartridge seating tool like your tool from Rhoades your compressing the powder more on the case when you push that round into the chamber. That will change your load. That tool is a great tool when you get into a bind out on the hunting grounds seating a shell in a fouled chamber.
The tool Bruce is talking about, the Webber tool, is a great breach seating tool. It will seat a groove diameter GG or PP past the 45 degree and also the lead angle what ever that length is. It will not deform a bullet when it gets fired and expands in the chamber then gets swaged back down too the bore groove diameter. There is a noticeable improvement using that tool.
If you look at the photo below at the charged case you will see the wad seated flush with the case mouth. When I use that tool for a chamber with the 45 degree wall at the chamber end I seat the bullet about 1/8" ahead of the case mouth and leave the wad in place.
When I use the rifles with a 4 degree/1.5 degree compound throat that bullet I seat quite abide farther out ahead or just at the beginning of the 1.5 degree lead that leaves close to 3/8" between the case mouth and the bullet base so I do not use a wad because of the possibility of ringing the chamber.
I haven't made a new ram and shell for the .44's yet but as soon as I get my lathe going, new or the old one fixed, I will be using it for the matches.
By the way, the shell on the tool stays on the tool.
Also if you think about having Russ make one for you have him make it so you can cam the handle right and left. The hammer gets in the way on a Sharps when you push the bulled in. It's tougher if you have a scope on the rifle.
I called Russ about this problem and told him to mill both sides of the locking cam so I can change sides when using a side hammer. He build my second like I asked and it works great. He might be making them like that now???????

Kurt