2020 Creedmoor Cup Lodi

[Kurt]

TNX. Jim,

Switching from irons in the middle of a match is tough. I had to do this last year at Lodi because I cross fired twice in one relay because I just could not see the target or read the number boards. My iron sight shooting is over unless the day is bright. I can still see the white spots on the iron gong shoots but loose the black spot on paper.
I ended up in the middle of the pack on my last Lodi switching sights and finding the paper when shooting for record. I think Lodi would benefit if they would open the range with a day of practice. I think it would boost the entry roster.

Jim, I never shot the .44-77 at a long range match except the Gond shoots and this was with the 19 twist rifle. It shot well at the Q but that is only a 805 for the long range and at Baker I played with the hunting rifle .44-77 with the 19 twist but that was using the barrel sights and I did not have a problem on their 1020-24??? yd iron staying on it once I found the range with the 485 gr Sharps bullet.
When you switched to the scope, did you feel it would handle the long range well enough to be competitive?

[J.B.]

Well done Jim !.. and all for that matter. Funny you mention not having a variety of loads... I usually have the reverse problem.. turning up with ten rounds left from one shoot and fifteen from another ! Different loads and different bullets. Switching from steel to glass in the middle of a match was pretty gutsy Jim but clearly you have the skills to make it work. I'm not ready for scopes yet...though it might help on the odd occasion

rgds.. J.B.

[Distant Thunder]

Kurt,

I tried a scope a number of years back at Lodi on my old C. Sharps .45-70 It worked for mid range ok. It was a complete debacle for long range and I never tried again.

I did shoot in a mid range match with my .40-65 with a scope about 3 years ago and it worked well enough to beat all the .45s and everything else, but there were only 3 of us using scope so it counted for nothing.

When I put the scope on my .44-77 I had in mind using it for load development and silhouette, but not long range. After shooting 1 and 1/2 relays with the scope this weekend I can see that it will work and work well, but it is different than irons.

When I switch in the middle of a relay I just went with the setup I had, meaning mostly my sticks. When I went to shoot the next relay I found that by lowering my sticks just a little my hold was much better. I think it is because the ocular lens of the scope is not as high off the stock as the eye cup on the irons is at 1000 yards. Once I matched the sticks to the scope it was pretty darn good and steady. I liked it. I will probably use the scope again when I shoot the .44-77 at long range. That may cost me a win if I shoot the highest scope in a match, but the system is what it is. I do not think a scope is an advantage in Creedmoor matches, but it does allow older shooters to see the target and the number boards. I haven't been able to see the number boards through the sights for years. I find my target looking over the top of the front sight and then raise the sight to the target. I am very careful about being on the right target and I'm also very lucky at time too.

A scope will not in and of itself win a match for you, but if your eyes are at a point where you are struggling to see the target well enough to sight on it then a scope will allow you to at least see the target and numbers clearly. Sunday I could see the bullseye when it was above the front aperture but as soon as I moved it to the center of the aperture it grayed out on me and I could not find it. I tried every aperture I had in my box including the largest one I have and nothing, it just disappeared on me. If there had been a bit more light I could have seen it I'm sure. Thursday was also a gray day and while I did fight to see the bullseye, but I could see it well enough to shoot. That was not the case on Sunday.

The scope is a 17 inch Leatherwood in DZ mounts and it will work from 100 to 1000 yards if set up correctly, on the correct bases. I have plenty of room above my 1000 yard setting. That was another thing I learned Sunday. I thought it was going to be closer to the end of my travel, but the .44-77 shoots flatter than my .45-70 so my calculated setting was too high. That is why I had to redo the math when I put the scope on Sunday using my actual come ups with irons.

For some reason with the 7.2" spacing on the bases and the each one thousandth of an inch equaling 1/2 minute I get all mixed up and can't remember whether to multiply or divide! I usually just over think math and find some way to screw it up. My teachers in school did a good job of instilling fear of numbers in me and a lot of other fears too! I panic whenever confronted with a form to fill out, it's too much like those tests they made me take in school and I break out in a cold sweat! I hated tests!

The Leatherwood scope is a good scope, but it's not a great scope. The DZ mounts are fantastic!

Anyway, the scope is on the .44-77 right now and I don't see it coming off anytime soon.

[Distant Thunder]

J.B.,

I should have done a few things different, but as usual once I get focused on an idea I can often lose sight of what I'm trying to accomplish. Why I thought testing the exact same load 6 times was going to tell me much I can not even figure out!

I need more .44 caliber paper patch molds and more powders for testing. This is going to take a lot of casting, loading and shooting. It's a good thing I'm retired and have the time to devote to this very important work!

My wife wonders when I have a rifle like my Hepburn that shoots so well and wins a bunch of matches for me why do I have to take on a rifle that I have to work so hard with and start all over from square one? She just doesn't understand that is the journey I'm after and enjoy most of all. It not about being there, it's about getting there!

[Distant Thunder]

Another thing of interest to report, one of my 2-diameter .44 caliber paper patch bullets was recovered at 1000 yards. While it was bent from the impact with the sandy berm it did show beautiful engraving and the step between the 2 diameters was completely gone, not even a trace. No gas cutting. The engraving went to about .020" in front of the leading edge of the patch, which was clearly visible.

The only problem I had with the .44-77 cartridge itself was the fouling. I continue to have trouble getting it all removed when match shooting. At home with no time limits I can keep it under control. Sunday I abandoned my bore pigs and went to 3 very wet patches and 1 dry and that was working until the rain started. Then I had trouble getting the chamber/bore dry and I damaged one patch chambering a round. I knocked that one out and chambered another but the last two shots went low and we concluded it was because of all the wet left behind with 3 patches. And wiping 4 times just takes too long under the clock.

It was suggested that I try another kind of wiping solution and that might be a good idea. I need to look into that.

[Kurt]

Jim I agree that a scope has no advantage over the tang sights, for what I see anyway except it lets you see the target again.
I been trying to use a scope since 08 when my first floater developed in the center of my shooting eye and since then I had another show up that looks like a tadpole. I wok up in the camper one night and looked up at the hatch in the ceiling and all I could see was black with a red ring when I moved the focus off to the side and saw the moon light starting to show up and switching back the light was gone. I thought the retina tore loose so I went to Miles City Mt and had my eyes checked and the doc told me it was advisable not to shoot. Well I packed up at the Baker shoot and went home and had ny eyes checked again and he said there is a large floater tree loose and that was the red ring your seeing.
Well now when I look at the white spot on the gong targets I see two spots and looking at a black bull I see it barely if the light is good.
I get that gray out you mentioned and shooting at Harris last fall was the final straw for me using the tang sights for paper matches. I guess the 81 years are catching up with me but I will do what I have to to keep shooting the matches even if I shoot just 50%.
I think I will just have to find a place where I can shoot long maybe a power line cut through the trees in a National Forrest or over a corn field and learn how to use a scoped rifle. But there is no clear spots around here where there are no buildings within rifle range to do that.
I know that if my rifle will shoot sub MOA at 200 it will hold 2MOA with the right load at the 1K.
My .50 did it and also the .45-90 did it so will the .44-77 do it.

[Distant Thunder]

I believe the .44-77 will shoot well at 1000 yards and I plan on proving that. It will take time but that doesn't bother me any. I saw enough this past weekend to know it shoots pretty well at 1000, just need to figure out how to get through a record string without fouling getting out of hand.

There's some weird stuff going on with my eyes right now. I'll have to get to the eye doc this winter, I should have gone last winter but I tend put that sort of thing off and then the damn covid hit.

I'll likely be using the scope on the .44 next year, it makes a big difference just being able to see. When I shoot my Hepburn I'll probably use irons until I can't see the target, then I'll find a scope that will work on it.

[beltfed]

Jim,
Do those bore critters have One or do they now have Two felts?
Are the felts both on the leading end?
You might try having a felt on the tip and a felt on the shank just below
the bristles. I sense that the bristles will loosen remaining fouling after the first felt
wets down the bore, and then the second felt should do a good job on that loosened
remaining fouling followed by a squeegee and then your dry patch.
Seems like that combo may be most effective.
Arnie.

[Distant Thunder]

Arnie,

I did put a second felt on the front end, but now I've been thinking about just what you are suggesting, putting one on the back end. I'll probably alter a handful like that to try as soon as I get time.

Right now I'm up to my ears with things to do before winter sets in and I'm way behind. I'm going to have to put shooting aside for a while and get back to it later. That will give me some time to think this over. I do welcome any ideas that others have and thank those who have offered suggestions already.

Patching works but just takes too much time. If felts like you're suggesting will work I'll make up a set this winter. I probably only need 20 and then just rinse them between relays.

[beltfed]

I would expect you would want more than 20, particularly for the 15 shot relays
I know what you mean about fall chores around the home. We are into lots of that needed before winter.
Still working in our little woods cleaning up tipped over and snapped off trees/brush from last July 19th storm.
Mainly mature, 2+ foot white pines. A friend came over with his small tractor and we finally cut down and he hauled
away some great saw logs for his sawmill. Also have some maple, oak and cherry to cut and split for firewood.
I want to mention to you and Kurt that we should look forward to next spring and get together at Rapids so we can at least work
on loads up to 600yds.
Arnie