Development of PP loads for the .44-77.

[Kurt]

The .44-77 is a good shell. They get a lot of bad rep because of the bottle neck but when you ask the people that make that post do you shoot one or ever had one there is silence. The .44-77 will just about handle any powder load and bullet that is in line with the twist and the same goes with it's big Brother the .44-2-5/8BN(.44-90bn)
I have two .44-77 and .44-90 bn's and they all shoot.

[beltfed]

More promising, better performance as you go along- looks like "the right direction"
Seems to me I recall, that Bottleneck BP ctges work better with minimal compression...?????
Will be interesting when you go to heavier bullets, Especially the 2d bullet to see if the charge/compression patterns.
also go better with less compression. I think that groove diameter base and taper up tight to the leade should give that much more
initial resistance to burn that powder better.
Arnie

[Kurt]

Arnie, I have a load that uses 74 grains with just enough to say the powder was compressed. The weight of the handle is enough. I also use 81 grains plus that uses between .250" and .290". I see no difference with the compression between the BN and Straight walled cases. Both have several different levels for compression to get the best from them.

[Distant Thunder]

It can be as hard to separate the "old wives tales" form the truth with thee bottlenecks as it is in much of the rest of life.

This is a new arena for me, the bottleneck case, and there is a lot I don't know for a fact. That being said, so far I have ranged from almost no compression to a 1/4" and haven't seen where it made any real difference. At this point I can see that this case will hold all the powder I want and a bit more if I need it. So I am leaning toward minimal compression as long as the accuracy can be found.

I did a good amount of shooting today and I'm at the point where about all I can do is try some different primers and see what difference that makes. I am down to 10 shots in around 3 1/2 inches at 200m and that may be the limit of this bullet in my rifle. It's not bad but I'd like better. This mold was supposed to just get me started and help me find out what length and weight of bullet would work best for me. It has certainly done that.

I did figure out where the occasional high and slightly left shot was coming from. I have to make sure I pull the rifle in snug to my shoulder or it will shoot a minute high and and 1/2 minute left every time. That won't be a problem prone off sticks but I failed to pull it in snug a couple times today from the bench and at least once the other day. I've got to post some pictures and then a lot of this will be clearer.

I'll do some more shooting tomorrow and see what I get, but for now the 84 grain load seems to work pretty well. 86 grains didn't look bad either.

Arnie,

I think your statement that the "groove diameter base and taper up tight to the leade should give that much more initial resistance to burn that powder better." is a very much overlooked benefit of the 2-D design. I noticed right away with my .40-65 that when I got it seated tight to the leade angle it started shooting much better.

Kurt,

The molds didn't show up today so I'm hoping Monday, any later and I'm not going to be able do any shooting with the bullet before Arnie's match. There's going to be too much family around me the end of next week and thru the weekend. We'll see.

[Kurt]

It wouldn't hurt one bit to spit in your hand and get a tight grip so the torque don't twist the rifle as well pulling it tight into the pocket. That cuts my groups from stringing with the .44-77. When I relax I see it on the paper. I wish I could still shoot prone, but that is in the past for me.
I was hoping they would make it today. I can run the tracking numbers to see where they are. If the wind didn't blow it out of the Jeep. The dust clears out in a hurry with the top rolled back.

[Distant Thunder]

Kurt,

I have noticed that there seems to be plenty of torque with this rifle and no pistol grip makes it more noticeable. I would guess a 17 twister would torque more than a 19. I'm getting used to it and it is becoming less of a problem, but I definitely need to hold on tight, not strangle it, just hold it close.

[Distant Thunder]

I wrote pretty much all the information on the loads themselves on each target and I hope I didn't miss anything.

   

Target #1: I wanted to test this 84 grain load some more because so far it is about the best, most consistent, I've had with this bullet in this weight.
I started in the middle of this first target with what I'd call a control group, the best load up to this point. Pretty typical of what I've been getting, between 2 1/2 and 3 inches for 5 shots.

I moved left and tried the same load with less compression, as in no compression, and the bullet seated out to 3.350" COAL. Nice 3 shot group, good shape.

So I decided I liked the 3.350" COAL better than 3.250". I moved to the right side of the same target to test the HDPE wad. Nope, not an improvement.

   

New target, #2: I shot 5 of the same 84 grain load but with the new 3.350" COAL. This is when I realized the high shots I have seen once in a while were a result of not holding the rifle nice and snug to my shoulder. The other 4 looked pretty good so I went to the house and loaded 5 more the same. An hour later (lunch) I returned to the bench and shot the 2nd 5 shots. The change in of the POI is probably a result of a minor change in my position returning to the bench. Every little variable shows up on the target. I hate having to get out of position in the middle of a string. Still not a bad group when you consider all the very good excuses I have.

   

Target #3: Although I like the 84 grain load I thought I better move up a notch and see if thing begin to open up. I loaded 5 with 86 grains and seated the bullet only an 1/8 inch in the case. The first one was out a bit but you can see that the barrel was cleaner on that shot and the other 4 are pretty darn good.

   

Target #4: So what happens if I load 84 grains and seat the bullet out .060" more. The only way to do that since at 84 grains and a COAL of 3.250" is minimum compression already is to put another wad in the case. Not good! I could play around and try two different wads, maybe a HDPE 1st and then the LDPE against the base of the bullet or vise versa. That may have to wait until I have more time.

So I'm probably going to have to go with the 84 grain load and see how it shoots prone off the sticks and make sure I pull the stock against my shoulder. That's where I'll test tomorrow.

It's time to start thinking about a mid range, gong and silhouette bullet in the 450 grain weight that is a 2-D design and is designed to seat in the case .150" to .200" or maybe even a bit more and get the powder charge down around 80 grains. I usually seat my PPB out as far as I can but the cartridge doesn't seem to mind if they are seat deeper and there is no point in burning more powder than is necessary to get to the target. Time will tell.

[Kurt]

Jim all in all just getting your cases fitting the chamber looks very promising except for some of the stringing I see, especially the oblique strings get a little troubling for me anyway.
What I have found with me behind the butplate and your noticing this when you mention holding tight.
My .44's have ROT's 16. 17 and 19's and there is a world of difference changing the control of the rifle. The 1/16 I can see as much as 5-7" change in the oblique string relaxing the hold of the rifle that I don't see in the 19's as much even the .44-90 that has a lot more powder behind the bullet.
Another thing I find that opens my groups, and I ran loads verifying this. I don't size my brass, just clean the cases, when I seat the wads before compressing the powder some wads need a hard push to get them in the case and some just about fall in. This can't be good with a loose wad that might let more pressure get past them. When I seat the wad and I notice a loose one I take a sharpie and mark that case and move it to the other side of the loading block. Out of 100 loads I might end up with a bunch loose once around 10 +- and especially if I don't use a lube wad using those loose wad shells the group widens and they widen more if I use a taper crimp when I use a standard chamber over a tight chamber.
When I use polly wads I quit using .060" wads. I will use two .030" polly or carton wads instead.
Just some of the things I have noticed going with the tighter twist barrels.
Heavier down pressure on the sticks I notice the group open up.

[Distant Thunder]

Kurt,

This hold on the .44 with it being seemingly more sensitive than my .45s is something I just started to realize yesterday. I find it very interesting. I plan to move to shooting prone off my sticks today and see what I learn there. I know my .40-65 is very sensitive to position on the sticks and it took awhile to figure that out when I finished my load development and moved from the bench. All of a sudden the my load that was shooting so well from the bench wasn't hitting anything from the sticks. I attributed that to the light weight barrel, but there are probably other factors too. For one thing the shooters position behind the rifle is totally different when in the prone compared to sitting at a bench.

Once I figured out what the problem was everything fell into line and it shoots very well from both the sticks and the bench. I took that lesson and started looking at how I shoot my .45-70 Hepburn prone off sticks and while it seems less sensitive I was able to make some improvements there too. So the .44 is a different animal and I'm beginning to see that and I'll figure out my errors and make the corrections. I do appreciate your input on this, it really helps.

I believe I'll add a pistol grip and that will help me pull the stock into my shoulder more consistently and help me deal with the torque also. That probably won't happen before the 25th, just too many things to do.

[Kurt]

My .44-77 Hartford hunting rifle has a 30" light weight octagon barrel and it just comes in at 10# top rifle the crescent buttplate helps keeping the torque under control better that the Farmer that has a pistol grip and the accuracy is better with it's 19 ROT than the 17 the Farmer has but it's a hunting rifle not a target rifle.