.44-77 and paper patch?

[J.B.]

Looking good Jim. I had Steve Brooks cut me a two diameter bullet...that has an ogive & meplat somewhere between the two designs youve done. Mine is a little on the long side for 1/19" I have here ..although I shortened it as much as I could. I actually wanted to use it in my 1/17" rifle in the States but thats proving to be a little too idealistic. I ran .433 on the forward section and .443 at its base and it seats well in unsized fired cases.. depending on paper thickness. More range time is needed though. To date...my better results , gg or pp, have all been with a nose closer to the original Sharps design. I'm keeping a close eye on your workings though

rgds.. J.B.

[Caprock]

Looking good Jim. I had Steve Brooks cut me a two diameter bullet...that has an ogive & meplat somewhere between the two designs youve done. Mine is a little on the long side for 1/19" I have here ..although I shortened it as much as I could. I actually wanted to use it in my 1/17" rifle in the States but thats proving to be a little too idealistic. I ran .433 on the forward section and .443 at its base and it seats well in unsized fired cases.. depending on paper thickness. More range time is needed though. To date...my better results , gg or pp, have all been with a nose closer to the original Sharps design. I'm keeping a close eye on your workings though

rgds.. J.B.

Educate me.. That base band diameter of .443 seems quite large to this pilgrim. I just had one cut by Accurate that has 435 base and .433 body. I thought about 436 but backed off. My base area is .2 in long.

[J.B.]

I had the mould cut so I could friction seat paper patched bullets without needing to neck size the cases at all. Fired cases from my rifle have an o/s diameter around .467 and i/s diameter around .447. Wrapped with Seth Cole white...and with the slightest flare on the case mouth...they will normally friction fit. Sometimes I've had to run the .466 sizer over them..but rarely. The base section on my mould can be varied in length but would normally be in a similar range to what you've indicated. I'm still experimenting with mine...and by no means would say its 'the way to go' ...but it seems to be working so far. Jim and a few others will have a much better handle on it than I. The earlier mould I had Steve make. ...along the lines of Kurts , 'Sharps' bullet ..runs at .432 for its entire length. Had I another go...I'd probably opt for .434 now that I have fine enough paper to wrap it with but I'd still need to neck the cases a little. Can't go wrong with Accurate Molds... he makes a top product. Actually have one on the drawing board with Tom at the moment. I'd love to play with a pp only chamber but I dont think that day will come for me.
hth.

J.B.

[Don McDowell]

Has Accurate got to where he can make nose without a meplat yet? Not sure it hurts much, but would be great if he could.

[Distant Thunder]

Actually I should have had the bore ride section on both those bullets at .429". My 9# patching paper will add .007" to the diameter with two wraps. The bore is just a bit over .436", .429 + .007 = .436". That's pretty easy to change on paper which is all I've got going so far.

I'm figuring the fired cases will have a neck ID of .447" and the freebore of the standard chamber should be close to .447" and only .050" long. That's why the base bands are .440" (.440 + .007 = .447").

One of the first things I'll do when I get the rifle back is to make a chamber cast so I know for sure what I'm dealing with. Right now I'm just playing with numbers on paper.

[J.B.]

Has Accurate got to where he can make nose without a meplat yet? Not sure it hurts much, but would be great if he could.

Not as yet Don. Not sure he's interested as he seems to keep busy enough with what he has. Just spec'd and purchased a new 40 cal mould for the 40/70 and it turned up in two weeks. Not bad for an international order... actually not bad for an order anywhere really. Overall length cant exceed 1.375 though...mind you that covers the vast majority. I've another 44 gg mould coming ( yes ..I know..mould of the month me ) that I had wanted a little longer for the 1/17" rifle but we compromised and dropped it back a little to fit his machining set up. I know what you mean about a radius meplat... his order box would be full I'd imagine... if it isnt already. Those brass moulds sure do cast well.

[Don McDowell]

JB I haven't tried one of his brass moulds but do have a couple of his aluminum blocks they do cast nice. Would like to see one of his iron blocks.

DT I think the dementions of your bottom drawing look pretty good, altho I think I'll bump the base of the nose diameter to .432 and give the base band just a touch more length, but I do like that nose profile. But I like the 8 lb paper better than the 9, and am becoming fast inthralled with the results the 7 lb is giving.

[Kurt]

Jim before you clamp that block of iron in your lathe and chips start flying you might want to rethink your base length length at .1350" a little.
You have it at .1350" and you say that you only seat that bullet .100" in the case. Using your .007" thick paper your not only adding to the dimensions of the base shank but also 7K to the base and also to the front of the taper. That has a lot of frontal you have to push into the .0438" bore. My rifle does not have .050" free bore.

[Distant Thunder]

Kurt,

Ideally the bullet would be in the case about .080" (IMHO) just like my .45-70 and my .40-65.

Kurt, this next stuff is not directed at you, but you give me an excellent opportunity to be very clear on an important point.

It is important for everyone to understand that I am just playing with numbers on paper right now! Only numbers on paper! Those numbers will probably change once I have the rifle and do a chamber cast. It's very important to know EXACTLY what YOUR chamber looks like before designing a bullet to fit YOUR rifle. That is a good rule that I will follow here and anyone else should do the same.

Even if I had a reamer drawing and I do not. Even if I had a chamber drawing and I do not. It would be very risky to have a mold cut or to cut one myself without a chamber cast. So I'm just trying to show my thought process as I design a bullet for this rifle and how I did for my other rifles.

So I will adjust that base band height to match my chamber once I have the rifle. At this point I am not even 100% sure what chamber the rifle will have. I have not spoken to anyone at Shiloh and they won't be starting my rifle for a fair while yet.

Once again, the numbers I'm putting on paper are only to show the process and anyone using MY numbers does so at their own risk!

It took me months to perfect the ppb design for my .40-65. I did a chamber cast, I slugged the barrel and I put a lot of thought into the OAL and two diameters before I machined the mold. I was lucky in that case to have an old Lyman mold to experiment with to get an idea of how different base band heights and diameters affected the performance in my rifle. The final result was worth the effort and time.

With my .45-90 and .45-70 I made no less than 8 different molds in my search for the best design and altered most of those more times than I can recall. In the end I went back to the 4th mold and tweaked it just a bit more to get the bullet I've been shooting the past 2 years and it works very well for me, better than any of the other designs or molds I made and tried.

Anyway, if there remains anyone who doesn't see that this is a process and that the perfect bullet mold for your rifle probably isn't just sitting on a shelf somewhere waiting to be ordered....., well it's not for lack of effort on my part. And I can NOT give you the dimension for that perfect bullet for your rifle either, all I can do, all I'm trying to do is to show you how I got here from where I started and the process I use. I hope it helps some of the readers to understand the process and help them through it.

It sure is a whole lot of fun. I am looking forward to working with my .44-77 and just maybe finding the perfect PPB for it too.

Also it is important to note that of the six rifles I have owned and worked with using PPB one has steadfastly refused to shoot paper patch bullets with any consistency. So not every rifle will accept PPB. Some day when I have time I'll revisit that rifle once again and give it another go. With each rifle I learn a little more and just maybe I have the answer for that one just ahead of me. It's a journey and I'm along for the ride!

[Kurt]

Jim I know you said this is just playing with the numbers. I do the same before wording a mould.

Jim do you want me to bring a couple fired Jamison .44 cases to Harris that fit tight when closing the breach in my standard Shiloh chamber?