.44-77 and paper patch?

[Distant Thunder]

Sam,

Thank you for the info on your cases and the drawing.

The one case I have is just as it came from BACO, NOT fireformed. It is said to be made for Shiloh chambers, but is probably sized small just to insure it fits for fireforming to each individual chamber. There is also the fact that this newer lot of Swiss 1 1/2 I have is lighter than my old lot. That probably accounts for the roughly 10 grains less in my case compared to yours.

I'm still trying to find out what I can get done as far as getting this rebarrel job done and by whom. The conversation is agonizingly slow! It takes days to get an answer to a simple question which only leads to another question and the resulting days waiting for an answer to that question and on and on...….., for about two weeks now. I'm not really in a hurry but I'd like things to move along! Right now I would be happy just knowing what I'm going to have at the end of this project. I know the work will take time, as it should, that I can live with.

[Distant Thunder]

I have run through the numbers on bullet length and twist rates for the .446 groove diameter and the numbers only reaffirm my thoughts on twists.

A 19-twist should stabilize a bullet up to 1.321" long.

An 18-twist should stabilize a bullet up to 1.395" long.

A 17-twist should stabilize a bullet up to 1.505" long.

For comparison, a .458 groove dimeter with a 1 in 18-twist should stabilize a bullet up to 1.470" long.

I know from years of shooting .45 caliber rifles in Creedmoor matches that you can shoot a bullet in an 18-twist rifle that is 1.500+ a few thousandths...…, sometimes! It's when things get ugly that you'll end up wondering what the heck went wrong. I much prefer to shoot a bullet in my .45-70 that is 1.430 to 1.440" long because years of shooting under match conditions has shown me again and again that the .030" difference in length will allow my bullet to hold up against the quartering head winds when other shooters that are pushing the bullet length to the maximum and beyond are scratching their heads and trying to figure what went wrong. I believe this very strongly.

Still I am amazed at the shooters that try to stretch the limits and fail. Sooner or later their bullets will struggle and there isn't anything that will help them during a match. They wonder why the load that shot so well before just fell apart this time. I tell people that if their bullets were just a bit shorter they would hold up in the tricky winds much better and they look at me and say, "That little bit shorter can't really make a difference.". I think it can and does.

So I, personally, would be much happier with a bullet that isn't right up at the edge of being stable and I want to stay back just a bit in my .44-77.

I want to be able to shoot a bullet in this .44-77 I'm hoping to have that is probably 1.400 to 1.450" long. And yes I could probably do that with an 18-twist barrel and just maybe with a 19-twist under just the right conditions. I don't want to shoot only when things are "just right" I want to shoot well when things are eating everybody else's lunch! I design my bullets to do just that. They are not the highest BC bullets available, but they are well stabilized. I will take a well stabilized bullet over a high BC bullet any day and every day. This is especially important in the transonic zone where we play.

I know the ODG in many cases used slower twists than we do today. They did some very fine shooting with bullets that were long and twists that were slow, I don't think they did it when things were on the twitchy side. I have done some very good shooting with a 1.420" long bullet in my 18-twist .40-65 and with a 1.555" bullet in my old 18-twist .45-70. Both those bullets are too long for those calibers and twist rates and eventually I'd have a bad day when using them. Going to bullets better suited to the twist rates of my rifles I didn't see those odd, unexplainable shots where you ask, " Where the heck did that come from?".

So that is my theory on bullet length, twist rate, and bullet stability. And why I really want a 17-twist for my .44-77. I know it will just serve me better when I really need it to.

I just need to be a little patient and work this out so that I can get my 17-twist barrel and have it chambered for paper patch bullets.

There is nothing wrong with the slower twist rates. With bullets that each will stabilize well they will be very accurate and shoot well in even the worst conditions and if I came across a Shiloh for sale with a 19-twist barrel I'd be all over it. Here I have the option of a 19 or a 17-twist and if I can I will go with the 17. If I have to go with the 19-twist I will design my bullets to be well stabilized in that twist and then see just how far I can push them.

I don't know how far my little 383 grain .40-65 bullet will hold up but it has done very well out to 600 yards and beat all the long heavy .45 caliber bullets in so doing! I didn't expect that! I just wanted to see how well it would hold up in a paper match where you can get a better idea of what the load is doing than you can on steel. If I where Rebarreling a rifle to .40 caliber or building a new rifle I sure wouldn't go with an 18-twist. I'd be looking for 16-twist! Or maybe even a 14-twist.

You still need to work with bullets that are of a length that is well stabilized in whatever twist to have if you want the best possible performance in all conditions, even the butt ugly ones.

[beltfed]

I sure agree with you,Jim, on all counts re. shorter, more stabile bullets for a given twist.
Will be interesting to follow your quest for the "perfect" 44-77
combination of twist, and bullet length. I would go with the 17 twist, for sure.
beltfed/arnie

[Distant Thunder]

Ok, I've got it all lined up to have my Green Mountain 17 twist barrel put on my Shiloh 1874! Now the next question is......, the chamber? Do I go with a standard gg chamber and a 2-diameter paper patch or do I go with Orville's 7* pp chamber and a bore diameter bullet. I'm happy either way, but I'd really like to hear from those familiar with this cartridge. If you have experience with Orville's chamber then I'd really like to hear your opinion.
This been a bit of a struggle to get to this point, communications being so slow with this internet thing, but I am happy with where it's at today.

[Hiwall55]

I talked to Manson today and he is going to send me a print for a 44-77 with a 12 degree from the case mouth.I will post it when I get it.

[Hiwall55]

Heres what they said was most popular.

[Don McDowell]

Jim Ild say go with Bills drawing it looks like it can run about any type of bullet
When ever I see some one start shooting some honesty scores or groups then I might start paying a bit more attention to the tight chambers
But my owne experience with them is they don’t live up to the hype

[Kurt]

Jim I will give you what I use in my .44-77.

I did not build this rifle for shooting matches it was build as a hunting rifle but I have shot it at long ranges past 1000 yards and it does very well.
This rifle is a Shiloh with a crescent buttplate and standard 32" light weight barrel that comes in under 10#. I have had a target front sight on this rifle just a copy or a original Sharps Hartford front blade but I did mount a scope on it and I also used a tang sight.
I took this rifle to the Cadillac midrange match one year and it did well holding 9 rind and 10 ring very good till that crescent buttplate bit me on the collarbone that drew blood. That was the last time I shot this rifle prone LOL. but I switched to the .45-90 to shoot the match.

I also shot this rifle before the match at Alma to see how this caliber and load knocked down the rams and they will lay down like THOR hit them with his hammer. I had a scope on this time and it gave me my first AAA score at the end using the scope.
I have several rifles in the .44 caliber. One CPA .44-75 Ballard with a 16 ROT The Shiloh .44-77 with the 1/19 ROT a .44-90 BN Shiloh with a 1/19 ROT, one .44-90 BN CPA with a 16 ROT and a .44-100 CPA with a 1/17 ROT as well a Shiloh .44-100 (20 lb rifle) with a 1/17 ROT.
The 1/19 ROT is a fine twist for the .44-77 but you want to avoid the elliptical s in this twist. They shoot well to midrange with the .44-77 but get squirely at the 600 yard Quigley target when the Montana winds start picking up, but it holds up very well using the .44-90 BN with the 1/19 ROT. The bullet I used was a KAL 1.462" long .432" diameter. I used this combination for the 2013 or 14 MT 1000 and did well using it but when the winds started picking up as the morning turned into the afternoon I had a problem using it in the 19 twist.
I normally use a 512 gr 1.400" long with the original ogive like the Metfort or Sharps profile. This 512 gr also stays stable to the 600 Q stop sign with the .44-77.

Here is my load data I use for all ranges too 1000 yards and even used it to shoot at 1585 yards and managed to hit a full sized iron buffalo using barrel sights at Rick's Range.
Cases are Jamison .44-77 and also Bell .44 basic 3.250" necked down.
The Jamison case holds 82 grains of the new 1.5 Swiss.
The bullet is a 485 gr of the original Sharps RN cast with a Brooks adjustable mould that he made from a bullet I sent him.
The bullet is 1.325" long .432" in diameter .485 gr. I use that bullet for everything because I have not found anything that shoots as well as it does.
I use 72 gr of 1.5 Swiss
Also 77 gr. of 2F OE with a Fed LR Match primer.
I also have shot a 405 gr .432" diameter 1.125 long with the original RN but it does not do as well as the .485 gr.
Forget the long nosed sleek money bullets in the 19 rot they will make you scratch your head wondering what the H......
They shoot very well in the 16 and 17 ROT bores.
The 1.462" .432 Dia 507 gr KAL is my go to bullet with the 16 and 17 ROT.
The 16 ROT does not shoot as well as the 17 ROT.
I also have a tapered KAL tapered Medford mould the shoots very good in all my .44's

If you need precipices ask...
You are also welcome to shoot my rifle but shoot it sitting
I also have a print drawn up for a new .44-77 I would like to put on a High Wall action. I have not sent it in yet because I keep saying....I don't need another rifle and I just don't eye to eye with C-Sharps.

Kurt

[Hiwall55]

Kurt,would you have a chamber print with Jamison brass.
I just rewrote the print from Manson and would like another to look at before I send it in.
Thanks Bill

[Kurt]

Bill this is what I drew up for using a GG or PP using the Jamison brass. A .446" diameter GG or groove diameter PP bullet will be a snug fit in a fired case.
The original drawing I has a 3 degree chamber end like the original Sharps but my 5 degree I have now shoots so well I made this the same.