Designing the 2-diameter paper patch bullet.

[Distant Thunder]

Don,

I saw that you guys weren't on the list for Lodi. I really had a good time talking with you last year so I was disappointed but I know how schedules can be. This isn't going to be a good year for me either, too many things all piled into a short summer!

The matches this week will be the first one of the year for me and that's always a hard one. I am not even up to speed yet and I'll be shooting Thursday morning (with luck) so it's difficult to know how things will go. I haven't fired a shot since September last year! It will be 3 sighters at 1000 yards to warm up and then go for score. That practicing stuff is way over rated! It will all shake out one way or the other. I ain't worried.

[Distant Thunder]

That's excellent service then, 2 weeks! I have one BACO mold and it's very well made mold and shot very well for, but it's a grease groove and I don't use those much anymore in my big single shots. It's really all paper patch these days, like it should be!

[Kurt]

Jim.

I use a 1.460" Paul Jones money bullet in a 1/18 ROT and it has worked fine for me in the .45-90 and it has been keeping me in the top 20 to 30 at the Quigley and it has kept me in the awards at the MT 1000.

I shot silhouettes at Alma Saturday and Sunday in the unclassified with irons but I was disappointed with my final ending with a 21 using the 1.460" long bullet in my .45-70. Saturday the conditions I thought were very dood looking down range before the match, sun was out temp I needed an extra sweat shirt to keep me from shivering but I thought this is a good time to get a new classification, but was I wrong when the match started you know what the conditions can do on that range That bullet gave me a bunch of vertical and I was not alone with this problem the way every body's score was at the end of the day. I ended up with a disappointing 16. But you know what the contrast between the berms and targets are like when everything is mud from all the rain that is swelling all the cricket around that lake.
Sunday Steve loaned me a different lolly pop insert with a thicker aperture and things worked better with the same rifle and load.
But I will have to come to terms that shooting silhouette I just have to get used to using a scope, on that range anyway.
But The PJ MB at 1.460 shoots well out to the 1K in my .45-90 but I can't say what it would do in the .45-70. I just don't shoot that caliber enough to know what it will do at long range.

I will be using that bullet at Lodi this weekend with the new .45-90 CPA. I'm a little disappointed that they will only let you get a sight setting during the 10 minutes prier for going for record at the 1K and unknown for 900 and 800 and only three sighters before going for record with unknown settings for those ranges. But if I see dirt on the first shot I should cut paper with the next two before record.
See you in a couple days..........Kurt

[Distant Thunder]

Kurt,

First, I was pleased to see your name on the list, we have missed you at Lodi. People have asked where you were.

Alma can be a challenge to get a good sight picture on certain banks of animals. I am very pleased with my scope for that and other reasons, my eyes are not getting any younger.

I'm not sure what velocity you are getting out of your .45-90 with that bullet and more velocity can make that length preform better. I run 83.0 grains of 1 1/2 Swiss in my .45-70 with a bullet that weighs 526 to 531 grains depending on alloy and that gives me just under 1300 fps. I would rather be up around 1350 or a bit more, but this where it shoots well. What's a man to do! So at 1290 fps my bullet at 1.440" shoots a bit better, especially is head and tail winds, than it did at 1.460". Again it is a small difference but at this point I'm not going to see big improvements in accuracy like I did in my early days of paper patching. I started with 6" groups at 200 yards and it was easy to see improvements on that. I don't have any idea what size groups I would get today at 200 yards, I haven't shot at that distance in years and to tell the truth it really doesn't matter. What matters is my scores at 800, 900 and 1000 yards.

The sample size with this bullet shortened to 1.440" is small, but the results were very consistent. Time will tell me better if it really matters for sure. If this alloy I'll be using this week holds up and this bullets shoots as well as it did all of last year it's going to hard to convince me that for me in my rifle 1.440" is not the best length for that bullet. I don't really claim to know for sure and I probably shouldn't give anyone the idea that 1.440" is THE magic number, but I can't not tell them what is working well for me. That is all I'm doing and I should be more clear on that. It's all based on my experience. Your results may be different.

I am chasing Mark and I only need about 2 more points per relay to have a chance of getting in front of him. That is probably just fractions of an inch at 1000 yards. It could be as simple as just cutting the 10-ring a couple of times instead of just missing it in the 9-ring! It can be pretty darn tight, I don't need much. Any time I am on Mark's heels I'm pretty happy.

[Caprock]

I have to ask this question for my own edification. Most of us are "blessed" with greaser chambers and DD appears to compensate for some of its shortcomings. I'm a little curious as where the advantage of the DD lies over say that of a tapered PPB..

[Distant Thunder]

Cap,

I have known a couple shooters who got good result with tapered bullets, I never got consistent results with them. To answer your question I think you have understand why bore diameter bulets shoot so well.

With a bore diameter the bullet is sitting almost fully in on the rifling and as a result, if it fits snug in the bore, is in as perfect alignment as you can possibly be before the powder is ignited. A DD bullet does the same but it fits the case mouth of a unsized grease groove chamber so that little or no sizing of the case mouth is necessary and the cartridge can be handled and chambered without the bullet falling out as long as care is taken.

A tapered bullet does bridge the difference in diameter between the case mouth and the bore like a DD bullet but does not have any length of the sides really supported by the rifling. There is really only one point of contact with a tapered bullet at the start of the rifling. It has to under go considerable change in shape to fill the resulting gaps when the powder lights up. Generally the less change in shape a bullet goes through the better the accuracy. I think tapered bullets are more likely to upset off center when they are fired and that result is flyers and inconsistent performance like I've experienced with them.

A DD PPB is the same as a bore diameter bullet except it fills the larger GG chamber area better with the larger base which helps reduce upsetting to fill that space when it's fired and then being forced down and engraved as it transitions into the rifling.

I hope that helps.

[Kurt]

Jim, I liked shooting at Lodi and I won't get into the reason I quit. I want to see the matches go on because it's about the only game going on east of the Mississippi, I don't want to see it die.

I think the only advantage Mark has over you is the home range thing. We learn what too and what not too do during a match learning the conditions. But in the end some comes down to the equipment and loads and doing the home work making them work.

Cap, I think a tapered GG I would compare to a tapered paper patched bullet. They have a tendency to start off canted riding the bore more on onside causing a problem like runout. If I was to shoot a greaser it would not be one with tapered front grooves. I would have a custom mould made with the reduced bands of equal diameter that fit the bore like a paper patched and the one or two base bands at groove diameter, like Jim's DD PP bullet so it enters the bore supported 360 degrees that is seated out past the case mouth like a PP bullet.

[Distant Thunder]

Kurt,

I know the reason you stopped coming to Lodi and I understand why. I am glad you care enough about the matches there to put the bad feelings aside and come and shoot with us. Thank you for that.

Your comparison of duel diameter ppb to GG with reduced diameter forward bands is spot on. The concept is the same, put as much as possible of the bullet shank up in the bore aligned with the rifling and fill the case I.D. with a groove diameter section. This also increases powder capacity.

It is important to note that paper patch bullets can be seated very shallow in the case, more so than any workable GG bullet could be. My Lodi bullet is only in the case .090" and in my chamber the rifling begins where the chamber ends. There isn't much more than .100" of the bullet shank that isn't sitting snug on the lands when the charge is lit. Only breech seating would have more.

I shoot my best when I'm trying to catch someone who is ahead of me but catchable with a good effort. These days Mark is IT! I also like friendly competition and when I'm beat I always shake the winner's hand. I play hard, but it's only a game and if I'm not having fun I might as well be golfing!

[Don McDowell]

Jim the schedules this year were just to tight between matches and real life stuff to make it back there. We really enjoyed the range, and both our wives had a great time wandering about the country side during the days.. Next year hopefully things work out better, we had even been promoting another Wyoming ruffian to come with us , now that we understand what the 3 man team thing means..
The dear old Desert Deuce keeps pounding on me about that practice word,, I keep telling him he's not in the Border Patrol anymore so he doesn't have to use strange words with everybody he speaks with. LOL. Might be such a thing as we can get him to come with us next year.

[Distant Thunder]

I'd like to see DD again, we had some good conversations and the man can shoot and he like Hepburns! He does use those greasy bullets though, I guess I can over look that fact with some effort.

I fully understand the scheduling thing, there are matches I really want to get to this year that simply are not going to happen. Sometimes the planets align and sometimes they don't. I look forward to seeing you and Eddie again when it does work out for you.

If I had access to a range with 800 yards or more I think practice would be very useful. I just don't see anything to gain from shooting at 200 yards with my long range rifle, which is about as far as I can shoot around here. That's where a .22 can be useful and fun. I do need to do more of that.