Designing the 2-diameter paper patch bullet.

[mherth]

Well obviously this thread has been just sitting here for the past 3 months, but there have bee some developments of interest with the DDPPB in .45 caliber.

Matt did some testing late winter, early spring when the weather was crap here in Wisconsin, which it is for shooting purposes pretty much from December through April. I have not heard from him in the past 6 weeks or so and I was disappointed to see he is not signed up for either of the two matches at Lodi next week. I don't know why that is, but I'm sure he has a reason. I hope all is well.

Probably the biggest development is that thanks to Arnie Seitz (beltfed) Buffalo Arms now lists the DDEPP bullet that he designed in their catalog and it should be a very good choice for anyone with a Shiloh Sharps .45 caliber rifle and their standard grease groove chamber or any other .45 with a similar chamber.

Arnie's design is very close to what I made for Matt and what I have been shooting in log range matches for the past several years though mine is a straight sided bore diameter bullet. The only thing I find fault with in the BACO offering is the overall length of 1.460", which I feel is about .020" to long for an 18:twist. The 1.460" puts the length right on the edge of what I would consider optimally stabilized in and 18-twist, but it should still work very well. The reason I feel that way about the length is that before last years shooting season my bullets were 1.460" long and I decided it was time to shorten it to 1.440" after thinking about it since the mold was cut several years earlier. At 1.440" long that bullet shot better than ever in some tricky head and tail winds and I had my best year to date shooting long range matches. I just feel that the shorter length is optimal for that design and gives it just enough more stability that when those winds are quartering the bullet holds up better. I know it a small difference but I'll take it. I lost the CUP match to Mark Schuenke by 9 points last year, that's 1.5 point on average in each relay. That's a small difference!

There are a couple of people I know that will be working with this BACO bullet this year and we should get an idea of how it works.

There will be at least 5 shooters using PPB at the State Championship at Lodi next week and I know 2 will be using DDPPB. When the smoke clears it will be interesting to see how the numbers look.

It looks like we may have to work around some change of rain and the winds could get a bit tricky at times, but that's Lodi always and that's what makes it so darn much fun to shoot there.

I will be there for both the CUP match on Thursday and Friday and also for the Championship on Saturday and Sunday. My ammo is all loaded and ready so it is what it is and what I will shoot. I did two things to my bullets so I would have something to worry about. First I recut the vent lines in the blocks because this mold has been altered so many times and the blocks were resurfaced a couple times that I pretty much lost my venting and last years bullets just weren't filling out well at all. Now they fill out fill out very well. The other thing I did was to tweak my alloy just a bit, which may have been a mistake. Between the two changes I gained about 5 grains in weight. That I did not know until after I had cast the bullets for the matches next week. How much weight increase is from what I don't know. I do know they are some very good looking bullets and that important. They are also very consistent in weight. I cast 250 bullets and they are all within 1.5 grains in weight. I had to toss one light bullet that was 1 grain under the low end of the acceptable spread. That's much better than the bullets from this mold were last year and last years bullets shot pretty well. The only way to know for sure is to shoot them and that's happening next week.

I'll be shooting the Championship with Arnie and Jeff Heeler, both will be shooting DDPPBs. Arnie will be shooting a .40 caliber I believe and Jeff with be shooting a .45. Should be interesting to how it goes.

If anyone is working with the BACO DDEPP I sure like to hear your results, good or bad.

So that is an update on the DDPPB going into the 2019 shooting season. The more information we share on this interesting design the better for all paper patchers and would be paper patchers. Good luck to all in 2019!

Jim, what do you consider a good bullet length for a 1 in 16 ROT IN 45-70?
Mike

[Distant Thunder]

Mike,

I have absolutely zero experience with 16-wist .45 caliber other than what I've seen other shooters do with theirs. I have always stayed with the 18-twist because it is what I know and it has worked well for me.

When I was trying to decide what length to go with in my 18-twist .40-65 I ran the numbers using several different formulas and came up with a range of results. Because that is my silhouette rifle and would likely only be shot out to 600 yards I chose a length a bit higher in the range to get a maximum weight for the rams, but not push it to the high end and run into stability problems. I settled on 1.250" OAL and it has worked very well out to 600 yards just as I had hoped.

You could do the same thing for a 16-twist .45. Run the numbers using the different formulas and if you're going to shoot out to 1000 yards just stay toward the lower end of the numbers you find.

I don't think that weight is all that big of a deal, within reason, that is to say as I would gladly give up some weight in favor of stability. We all want to shoot a 545 grain bullet and I know that, but if that heavy bullet is only marginally stable it is going to struggle when the winds get nasty. I would much rather shoot a 520 grain bullet that is well stabilized so it doesn't go all wobbly when it gets hit on the nose by a quartering headwind or bumped in the butt by a tailwind.

A very important thing to note is that the optimal length, as I call it, is somewhat dependent on the nose profile. A bullet that is more blunt with a shorter ogive can be a little longer than one that is more sharply pointed with a long ogive. My .45 caliber bullet has an ogive that is almost one half the OAL. While it is an elliptical form I like cap the nose with a radius that is approximately 1/3 caliber. Arnie's bullet is similar but the radius is closer to 1/4 caliber. He and I both believe this makes the bullet preform better at transonic velocities and it helps increase the weight without making the bullet longer.

I believe I've said it before but let me repeat that I am not a ballistic expert. My opinions are base on my experiences from 20+ years of shooting long range matches. For most of that time I have machined my own bullet molds and tested everything I've read and heard that seemed reasonable. The bullet I use now and for the past few years is the result of what I have learned. While it has worked very well in two of my rifles it has not worked as well in other rifles apparently. I have made a few other molds of the same design for other people and their results were not as good or they never really worked with the bullets enough to know for sure. I don't really know which is the case.

I'm sure others would like to know what length you find would be optimal for your 16-twist so please let us know what you come up with.

[Don McDowell]

I hadn't been able to do any shooting since early February, but did run the dual diameter bullet in the 40-70 during practice day at Alliance on Thursday. I was really happy with how that bullet held up out to 960 yards. I was wanting to shoot that rifle and load in the Buffalo match today, but glad I didn't try it with the switching winds. I have a midrange sight on that rifle and it was topped out to get to that 960 yard bear, but it did hold good elevation in relatively good conditions Thursday, but only about 2 inches into the bottom of the target.

[Distant Thunder]

Don,

I'm not surprised your .40 is holding way out there. That design held up well for me in my 18-twist .40-65 out to 600 and that bullet only weighs 382 grains. It is a good design and really it is an old design.

You should put a log range sight on that and see what it can do at 1000. I have shot mine at silhouette ranges in some pretty nasty winds and it held up well enough to win scope class. Moving to paper patch has really made my .40-65 shine. That bullet in my rifle and Arnie's elliptical DDEPP in his .40-65 are the reason I wanted to get more information out there on the duel diameter paper patch bullets, they work very well.

It's good to hear it working for you too.

[Don McDowell]

I'm really happy with this bullet. It shot better at 600 when we tested it last January than anything ever has in this rifle. Need to find some time to load some of them in the 40-90 bn and see how they do compared to the money bullet that rifle likes so well
The dual diameter bullet has been working well for several years in the 44's.
My CPA and Borchardt both really like the dd 45 bullet , but my Shiloh 45-70 not so much.
I've been using 7 lb paper on bullets that are closer to or at bore diameter before wrapping and getting really good results, so I'm thinking to wrap some of those 45's in that 55y paper and giving them another run in the Shiloh.
Good luck at Lodi, Eddie and I were commiserating this weekend at Alliance about neither one of us being able to squeeze it into the schedule this time.

[Gunlaker]

Jim do you have a part number for that new BACO mold?

It would be interesting to see how well it works in one of my Shiloh Sharps rifles, compared to my rifles with Dan T.'s bore diameter PP chambers.

thanks,

Chris.

[Don McDowell]

https://www.buffaloarms.com/453-545-grai...jim453545e

[Gunlaker]

Thanks Don.

[Distant Thunder]

Chris,

I sure do! They offer it in two sizes and they list it by the base diameter, which is the wrong way to list it IMO. Sku: JIM453545E is the .443" diameter version, that's the as cast diameter of the bore diameter section. It should patch with 9# (.002" thick) paper to .450". Then the JIM455545E is the .445" diameter version and I believe it should patch up nicely with Seth Cole 55W, but I would have to check my notes on that paper to be sure. Those using 55W should know what it adds. I have used it some but not enough to have the numbers committed to my aging memory!

Ideally the bore diameter section would patch to a snug fit in the bore of your rifle and the base diameter would patch to a snug fit in your fired and unsized cases. You could easily size the base after patching to suit, but sizing the bore diameter is much more complicated.

I would like to see how this bullet would shoot in my Shiloh .45-90. I think it would be a perfect bullet for that rifle and it's standard grease groove chamber. That project is on my list of things to due, some day!

Oh, the bad news is both sizes are out of stock and the demand will probably fairly high for a time. So you may have to wait to get one.

[Don McDowell]

Jim unless they have a set of blocks in stock they always show out of stock, but if a person calls and orders an out of stock mould, they'll usually send it in about 2 weeks. I think they do it that way so they don't tie up a bunch of blocks on bullets that aren't selling well.