Designing the 2-diameter paper patch bullet.

[Distant Thunder]

Arnie,

That .45 caliber bullet is very close to what I have been using in my Hepburn but in a straight sided design, but you know that. It is pretty much the same as the mold I made for Matt's .45-90, his rile has a long lead more than a freebore really. He got some loaded up and should shoot them this weekend.

I could have cut the base band about .020-.025" longer for Matt but it will work as is and I believe in shallow seating.

[beltfed]

Semtav
That thing about the length not going to the base is just an abheration
of when I applied the dimensions to Jim K's CAD drg made from my dimensions
that he so faithfully reproduced in the mold.
YOu could say the PIC is "not to scale" .
The dimensions are what to go by.
Arnie

[beltfed]

Oh, and Great Thread, everyone
Arnie

[Semtav]

Since I used the same gg bullet in my 40-82 and 40-65, it would be interesting to know if both would like your bullet
They liked 80 and 70 gr Swiss 1.5 respectively, so I think I know a way to figure that out measuring my groove dia pp bullet seating depth.

[Distant Thunder]

It could be possible with modern barrels and pretty good QC on the bore diameters, unlike the originals, to design a 2-D PPB that would fit more than one rifle quite well. If the seating depths can be worked out to fall in a range of say .080" to .150" it could work. If diameters are too different you might have to use two different papers, but that is doable.

If you end up seating closer to .150" in one rifle the brass length becomes more critical to avoid paper rings, but that too can be controlled.

I really don't know just how much wiggle room you have for good accuracy. I just know, for me, a good snug fit in the bore and a shallower seating depth gave me the best accuracy. Other are able to shoot looser and deeper with good results. With some careful thought and tinkering I'm sure one bullet could do very well in two or more rifles of the same caliber if they have at least similar chambers in the area the bullet rests before firing.

The cartridge behind it shouldn't matter much, other than maybe the wads required. More powder seems to like a wad stack, with less powder a single wad has worked for me. Even with 100 to 105 grains of 1 1/2 Swiss in my .45-90 one wad was all I used. It has to be a HDPE wad in the rifle, but it works.

My .44-100 was the only rifle I ever had to use a "wad stack" in to get good accuracy. I don't know much about multiple wad loading other than to say, sometimes you just have to.

[Semtav]

The cartridge behind it shouldn't matter much, other than maybe the wads required. More powder seems to like a wad stack, with less powder a single wad has worked for me. Even with 100 to 105 grains of 1 1/2 Swiss in my .45-90 one wad was all I used. It has to be a HDPE wad in the rifle, but it works.

That's the way my 40-82 was. 80 gr of swiss 1.5 and a single .030 LDPE was all I needed. So far with PP I've used one .030 veg wad under one .030 LDPE wad for all my loads. I'll sit down tonight and see what I come up with.
(Don't know that I've ever used HDPE on anything but my ski bottoms)

I'm not even sure I need a DD bullet for my 40-82. I need to work up a Groove Dia. PP load for it first and see.

[beltfed]

Semtav
read your email from me
To send you sample 40 cal DDEPP bullets
for 16 twist and for 14 twist
beltfed/arnie

[Semtav]

Semtav
read your email from me
To send you sample 40 cal DDEPP bullets
for 16 twist and for 14 twist
beltfed/arnie

I'm looking but don't see anything. PM or email.


(I just updated my email in case it was wrong)

[Semtav]

After looking and measuring this, I realized that I have been patching way too far up on the bullet. I'm about .060 too far up.
How much do you leave in the case ? (these are patched to .409 dia)

   

Sent from my E6810 using Tapatalk

[Distant Thunder]

Well obviously this thread has been just sitting here for the past 3 months, but there have bee some developments of interest with the DDPPB in .45 caliber.

Matt did some testing late winter, early spring when the weather was crap here in Wisconsin, which it is for shooting purposes pretty much from December through April. I have not heard from him in the past 6 weeks or so and I was disappointed to see he is not signed up for either of the two matches at Lodi next week. I don't know why that is, but I'm sure he has a reason. I hope all is well.

Probably the biggest development is that thanks to Arnie Seitz (beltfed) Buffalo Arms now lists the DDEPP bullet that he designed in their catalog and it should be a very good choice for anyone with a Shiloh Sharps .45 caliber rifle and their standard grease groove chamber or any other .45 with a similar chamber.

Arnie's design is very close to what I made for Matt and what I have been shooting in log range matches for the past several years though mine is a straight sided bore diameter bullet. The only thing I find fault with in the BACO offering is the overall length of 1.460", which I feel is about .020" to long for an 18:twist. The 1.460" puts the length right on the edge of what I would consider optimally stabilized in and 18-twist, but it should still work very well. The reason I feel that way about the length is that before last years shooting season my bullets were 1.460" long and I decided it was time to shorten it to 1.440" after thinking about it since the mold was cut several years earlier. At 1.440" long that bullet shot better than ever in some tricky head and tail winds and I had my best year to date shooting long range matches. I just feel that the shorter length is optimal for that design and gives it just enough more stability that when those winds are quartering the bullet holds up better. I know it a small difference but I'll take it. I lost the CUP match to Mark Schuenke by 9 points last year, that's 1.5 point on average in each relay. That's a small difference!

There are a couple of people I know that will be working with this BACO bullet this year and we should get an idea of how it works.

There will be at least 5 shooters using PPB at the State Championship at Lodi next week and I know 2 will be using DDPPB. When the smoke clears it will be interesting to see how the numbers look.

It looks like we may have to work around some change of rain and the winds could get a bit tricky at times, but that's Lodi always and that's what makes it so darn much fun to shoot there.

I will be there for both the CUP match on Thursday and Friday and also for the Championship on Saturday and Sunday. My ammo is all loaded and ready so it is what it is and what I will shoot. I did two things to my bullets so I would have something to worry about. First I recut the vent lines in the blocks because this mold has been altered so many times and the blocks were resurfaced a couple times that I pretty much lost my venting and last years bullets just weren't filling out well at all. Now they fill out fill out very well. The other thing I did was to tweak my alloy just a bit, which may have been a mistake. Between the two changes I gained about 5 grains in weight. That I did not know until after I had cast the bullets for the matches next week. How much weight increase is from what I don't know. I do know they are some very good looking bullets and that important. They are also very consistent in weight. I cast 250 bullets and they are all within 1.5 grains in weight. I had to toss one light bullet that was 1 grain under the low end of the acceptable spread. That's much better than the bullets from this mold were last year and last years bullets shot pretty well. The only way to know for sure is to shoot them and that's happening next week.

I'll be shooting the Championship with Arnie and Jeff Heeler, both will be shooting DDPPBs. Arnie will be shooting a .40 caliber I believe and Jeff with be shooting a .45. Should be interesting to how it goes.

If anyone is working with the BACO DDEPP I sure like to hear your results, good or bad.

So that is an update on the DDPPB going into the 2019 shooting season. The more information we share on this interesting design the better for all paper patchers and would be paper patchers. Good luck to all in 2019!