Designing the 2-diameter paper patch bullet.

[Don McDowell]

Just food for thought.
When shooting the Lodi match I think the 1000 yard will be the best target. It's the first target you shoot, you're fresh in the morning, and the light is behind you. By the time the match progresses down to the 800, a person is starting to get tired and the light is coming in from the front of the rifle..
Looking forward to shooting that match again.

[Kurt]

Don this is true, but I have seen heavy haze first thing in the morning especially if you are shooting the first relay. Also I have shot when the sky fell when I got out of the pit and took the eye cup out and used it like a ghost ring with the front insert with a heavy post just to see that target. I cross fired on the target on my right and he cross fired on mine LOL.

[Distant Thunder]

Back in the days when we used to shoot 800 first and work back to 1000 there were many times when you could not see the targets at all from 1000 yards late in the day and looking into the sun above that big hill behind the targets. There were a lot of DNF turned in. So we voted to change the order and shoot 1000 first, much better. 800 can be a challenge on for the last relay, but nothing like it would be at 1000. It wasn't real bad until September and then it was brutal!

[Don McDowell]

Jim it didn't take very long to figure out why you guys did the targets the way you do... I have much the same thing here on my range at home. The only place I can get from 200 to 1000 yds is the bottom of a draw that faces west.. Late in the afternoon the sun can be brutal to see thru even at 200.

[Distant Thunder]

I had some time this evening to explore the idea of this bullet fitting my C. Sharps 1874 in .45-70. That rifle has about 3/16" freebore and while that was handy when I was shooting GG bullets it hasn't worked out with PP. I have tried straight bore diameter and straight groove diameter PP bullets in this rifle and never got good consistent results. The best, and it wasn't that good, was an NEI bullet that patched to groove diameter, but with a fairly short freebore and a short ogive on that 500 grain bullet I had to seat it so deep in the case that my powder space was very limited. It might have been ok for mid range but not long range because the velocity would have been below 1200 fps.

I have been wanting to try this 2-daimeter idea in this rifle for a while now and just never seem to find the time to get a mold made for myself. When I cast some bullets from Matt's mold last week I immediately thought that it just might have a long enough groove diameter section to leave just enough of the base in the case to allow it to work in my rifle.

Every once in awhile a guy gets lucky! It actually fits almost perfect to my way of thinking. The bore diameter section is a nice snug fit in the muzzle and the groove diameter section is a perfect fit in my Starline Brass. Pushed into the chamber until the groove diameter is tight against the rifling there is just .070" of the bullet in the case. This will be the shallowest seating I've used with PP but should work great.

   

I should be able to get between 83.0 grains and 85.0 grains of 1 1/2 Swiss under this bullet in my .45-70 with no trouble. This will be interesting!

I'll cast up a bunch before I turn the mold over to Matt and he and I can both work with this bullet and then we will have results from two different rifles, his a Pedersoli and mine a C. Sharps. There is always the chance that a rifle won't shoot well with a given bullet whether GG or PP, but I think this bullet has a very good chance of working in both our rifles. Also Matt has a second rifle he wants to try this bullet in and that will tell us even more.

Now I just have to find the time to load some up and see how they shoot before the snow gets so deep here that I have to wear snowshoes to get to my target at 200 meters. We have snow coming tonight so my time may be short!

[Distant Thunder]

This evening I am starting my initial load development for this 2D-PPB in my C. Sharps 1874 .45-70.

The first step is to determine how much powder (1 ½ Swiss) will fill the case to the very top when using my 14” long drop tube. That turns out to be 84.0 grains. If I want more I’ll will have to use a compression bushing and I will make one of those ASAP.

On top of the 84.0 grains of 1 ½ Swiss I started a .060” LDPE wad and then compressed that so it was .030” below the case. One thing which is causing me to have to seat so shallow is that my Starline brass is .020” short of the 2.100”. Surprisingly the bullet sits in the case not too bad. Care will have to be taken so it does not fall out while handling and chambering, but it is doable.

The start load looks like this:

521 grain 2D-PPB (Matt's)
.060 LDPE wad
84.0 grains 1 ½ Swiss
Federal 210 primer
Starline .45-70 brass
C.O.A.L. = 3.485”

A cartridge so loaded slides easily into the chamber until the last .020-.030” and the breech block cams it home from there.

These bullets are some of the very first ones I cast from this mold and are running 1 to 2 grains shy of those I cast once I figured out how this mold works best. These will do just fine for the first tests at 200 meters and I will cast some more as soon as I get time.

Shooting will be with a scope from the bench at 200M. I would hope to do a first test this coming weekend, if the weather will allow me to.

This is the same procedure I used with my .45-70 Hepburn and .40-65 C. Sharps 1875. After this first test and assuming something that looks like a group at 200M I will try a few different primers, though the 210s have always worked well in this rifle with Swiss and GG bullets so that is why I started there.

Tonight I'll load enough to get it zeroed and shoot a 10-shot group to see how it all looks. I pretty much expect this bullet to shoot pretty well out of the gate, but primer choice and powder charge can make significant differences.

Once I know what primer it wants I’ll go up with the powder charge one grain at a time to see if there is something it likes better.

It shouldn’t take very long to have a good load and then it would just need to be tested out to 1000 yards and that I would have to do at a match and hope for the best. I would likely try this bullet at a gong match Merrill out to 500 yards in May. The other possibility would be a paper match out to 600 yards at Wisconsin Rapids also some time in May. Shooting is very limited here in my corner of the world during the winter months.

If Matt’s bullet works as well as I think it will I’ll make a mold for myself with the same profile and OAL except the groove diameter base will be .040-.050” longer to allow for a bit deeper seating. I would ideally like to see .080-.090’ of the bullet is the case. I don’t, at this point, see any reason to change either diameter at all, the fit is about as good as it gets.

[Distant Thunder]

Just a quick update. I loaded these last night and found I had to set my compression die just a bit deeper, .015", or I had to be way too careful handling the cartridges. The COAL is now 3.470". All else went as planned. I did use my Lee Factory Crimp die to tighten the necks slightly after finger seating the bullets and with the resulting cartridges the bullets stay in place very well. This is SOP anyway, I do this for my Hepburn .45-70, my .45-90 and my .40-65.

[Distant Thunder]

This is not exactly what I hoped for but then this stuff is seldom easy.

   

This leaves some room for improvement. I don't think I ever hit the goal the first time out of the gate. This one is no different.

I would feel better about my chances if the groove diameter base was .040-.050" longer. The way it is I had to seat the bullets off the lands about .020" just to keep them in the case while chambering.

At the widest point it is just under 5 inches CTC. The two shots in the upper left were my sighters with the 3rd one just above the paper. Then I corrected and actually over corrected. For some reason I just couldn't leave the knobs alone and I think if I had the group would have been smaller. It is a nice round ground though a bit of a donut.

I shot this prone of sticks at 215 yards. The temperature was 25 degrees, the wind was calm and the sky was cloudy. I used my 6X scope. The actual aiming bull is above the white paper. The black dot was just to give me a reference point on the paper 16 inches below the center of my bullseye.

I'm not sure where I would go next with this bullet and I'm not sure I really should. It was cut to fit Matt's rifle not mine. And certainly not this freebored .45-70. I should give some thought to trying it in my .45-90. It would fit that chamber much better, no freebore in that one.

I'll see what the seating depth would have to be in my .45-90 and then decide what to do if anything.

Matt should have the bullets I sent him by now and he will load some and see what happens from his rifle. I'll post that info here too. That should actually be a better result.

[Kurt]

Well it's a nice round pattern. It might take a little work to get it tight but the group is round.

If it's not snowing too hard tomorrow I will take my heavy .44-100 and shoot Brians postal. The loads are several years old but they shot good. I will shoot one irons and one scope just to get out and have some fun.

[Distant Thunder]

Kurt,

I was thinking I would submit this one for that postal, but it just isn't that good. I ran the numbers and it would score at 93.6". That wouldn't be bad for 900 yards, but I would want better at 200. That would be just a hair more than a 2 MOA group at 900, not bad, but at 200 yards I'd want to be closer to 1 1/2 MOA. If you could hold 2 MOA plus a little at 900 and be centered that would be 9s and 10s which ain't bad. At 200 it looks not so good!

These were the first 13 bullets I cast from that mold and they were not "match" quality. With a little work I think I could get that down to a 3 1/2" group and that would be looking good.

Shooting today was tough going. The snow has a thick crust on it and every step I'd break through, so trudging to the 200 yard target and back took some effort. Then I was shooting late this afternoon and running out of daylight fast too. Anyway those are my excuses and I can come up with a few more if needed.

If I can get around to it I'd like to see how this bullet fits my .45-90 Shiloh and maybe shoot some in it, but I'd have to cast some more bullets and that won't happen before next weekend.

It took me almost a year of working with my .40-65 and a 2-D PPB to get from about the same size initial group to something that shoots pretty well. I'd have to up the powder charge and play with some different primers and that should bring things in some. It's just that being a little short on the groove diameter length I'm not sure it is worth the time, lead and powder. I might just as well wait until I can get a mold cut for this rifle before investing time in a mold that is for someone else. Matt can work with this one in his rifle.

Still it was fun to get out and shoot. I haven't shot prone off sticks in four months and I could feel it!