Bullet size quandry

[Don McDowell]

Ok, been doing some reading in old books. In one I found some interesting stuff about paper patching. It started out with a lecture about how much better grooved bullets were for hunting but patched bullets far superior for target work..
Then it goes on to say that the patched bullet should be .003-.006 smaller than the grooved bullet for the cartridge.....and that patching paper came in 4 thicknesses, with the extra thin being .015, thin being about .020 and same amount going to medium (Bodine referenced medium paper in Seller's book) and thick.
So does that mean that the .451 bullet for the 45 caliber sharps should be that diameter when wrapped, or should the slick be .448-.445 and then wrapped with the paper to bring the bullet to "fit the barrel"?

[Stephen Borud]

That's interesting Don. I would think part of the reason the paper thickness was different was do to the lack of custom mold makers, or maybe the cost of a custom mold in those days. I know that when a new rifle was bought the buyer would most times buy the bullet mold, and all the reloading utensils recommended buy the gun builder, having different thicknesses of paper would allow the shooter patch to under bore diameter up to let's say groove diameter. I would think the pp bullet would be wrapped to .451 for its final OD. Not having a lot of experience with checking original barrels and chambers I'm guessing. Good stuff though
Stephen

[Kurt]

What ever the diameter of the bullet or thickness of the paper, I would bet that they still adjusted to what shot the best for them.

Kurt

[bruce moulds]

bullets might have varied in diameter, but so did barrels, due to engineering capabilities in the day.
the beauty of patching is that things can be married to work best.
did people lap their barrels in those days? this would cause further dimensional variables.
sharps long range bullets have been reported at 0.446 diameter.
using their thinnest paper at 0.0015 would bring them up to 0.452, still able to be loaded in a 0.450 barrel, but pretty tight. or were they seated deeper in the case with the tapered part up against the rifling.
this paper was banknote paper, so was plenty tough and would have withstood handling and conditions much better than the papers we have today.
the other thing affecting this is chamber dimensions.
proper pp chambers would not allow a full groove diameter bullet to be seated in a fired case, or if so to chamber in the rifle.
hence the use of undersized greasers in sharps rifles other than 45/70 and 50/70.
possibly part of the reason sharps recommended grease wads under greaser bullets was to seal gas until the bullet bumped up enough to seal itself.
interestingly they did not recommend a wad under the bullet for this application, obviously point blank hunting out to say 120 yds.
keep safe,
bruce.

[Stephen Borud]

Bruce I know reading the original Sharps book the 45 2 4/10 bullet was seated 1/8 of an in the case, a 100 grains of Fg powder and a piece of draft paper separated the powder from the bullet. I have a 45 2 4/10th, a 100 grains of Fg just about fills the case when I drop tube it. The bullet is barely seated in the case so a fairly tight fit between the OD of the bullet and bore would be a must to get good accuracy.

Stephen

[Stephen Borud]

Sharps also made full length seating dies. I've built a couple, they work very well. If memory serves me right in Sellers book they show a bullet seater for a Sharps grease groove bullet. It's a rectangular machine block with the center cut out. Been meaning to build one just haven't had the time yet.

Stephen

[Don McDowell]

From what I'm seeing of unaltered Sharps rifles, they'll chamber a grease groove bullet right along with a paper patch.I do think the target/creedmoor guns were chambered a good bit tighter than a sporting rifle.
This 50 cal. Hartford has a very generous chamber in it.
But then again we have Bodine telling Sharps their bullet was about right with the medium paper. He wanted the bullet to just slide thru the barrel with the weight of a cleaning rod.
And in Seller's book there's the picture of those bullet gauges. One of those 44's is marked at .442.

[bruce moulds]

don,
you could well be right about the chambers on creedmoor rifles vs hunting rifles.
then there is also the need for a smaller bullet when shooting dirty than when wiping.
steven,
you are right about the 2 4/10 case and load.
our modern brass will not hold as much.
you can however achieve the same thing by using a breech seater for the bullet and 100 gns powder filling that case with a wad.
keep safe,
bruce.

[Stephen Borud]

Don is right, the Sharps books says they use the tightest of tolerances on there long range rifles! They don't say that with the other calipers and rifles. Makes me wonder how much tighter and obviously it's a selling point. I can see the more common hunting calipers being a bit looser, especially for hunting, where repeated shots are taken under uncontrolled conditions. We can also look at how the hunting bullets had a good amount of taper to them which aloud for repeated shots shooting dirty.

[Don McDowell]

Stephen, that's a good point on those tapered bullets. They also had that dual diameter bullet, it works very well for shooting dirty. I have used it 2 years in a row at the bptr nationals.