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40-65: Learning what I can - SgtDog0311 - 09-10-2015
Been doing like I usually do once I get a new caliber/chamber to fiddle with, only this time I’m sneaking up on BP for the first time as well.
I’ve got links and snippets captured from all over the sites trying to make sure I don’t make mistakes with precious funds.
First off, this is for a reline candidate, a Marlin Ballard #5 Pacific that started life as a 40-85. The chamber looks like a trooper under Indian attack was furiously trying to pry brass out of his chamber with his knife and the bore is not the best nor worst that I’ve seen. I originally thought to go with a 40-82 Silhouette but decided on a 40-65, and don’t think that’s a bad choice for a 10lb rifle. Impact to the value of the rifle is not a big driver hear so much as finding a cartridge I could load and shoot without breaking the bank or spending months searching for components.
Second, beside this being my first rodeo with BP, I’ve never gone through the rigors of selecting a reamer either.
I thought I read a lot before making the decision towards a 40-65 but am seeing things under a different light right now.
Conventional wisdom points to reformed 45-70 over 40-65 from Starline. I glean that is largely due to two things, Starline’s quality in 40-65 Win brass and the length of their brass falling a little short.
Speaking past the quality and directly to the length issue, is it unheard of (or folly) to have a reamer cut to match available brass length. I’ve reformed brass before, though not much. Most recently I did a batch of Hornady 405s for a 40-63 Ballard Everlasting chamber and wound up having to inside-neck-ream each case to get the size bullet I wanted to chamber. Was kinda hoping to keep it simple this time out while concentrating on Black Powder. Would be interested in opinions and experience here.
Another thing is that I read about different chambers in 40-65 and different dies and am left wondering how a fellah fastens on what he wants that is gonna carry him into the future without wishing for changes as soon as he gets settled in, chamber wise.
I don’t want a 45* transition; would actually favor a 3.5* so I’m thinking that is properly stated as a 7* included transition. Is that correct? I’m also uncertain if a guy would want to specify any freebore in a reamer or if I’m obliged to have whatever freebore existed in a 40-65 chamber be taken up by the flatter transition?
I’d planned on a 400+ grain bullet. I think BA has a 420gr Money Bullet but I also like a nose that has bore-riding characteristics so have not got that settled in my mind yet. Soliciting thoughts on that as well. Not sure if I should be selecting a bullet and determining chamber characteristics after or the other way around. Or for that matter if a guy is best advised to use “standard” reamer without trying to make modifications. And on that topic, I just read tonight where someone said Shiloh was or had been transitioning away from their 45* transition. Not sure if that was hogwash or not.
Well, that’s enough to get the ball rolling. I’ll have plenty more questions if anyone wants to partake in the conversation. I’ll appreciate all input that fillet me for an fng.
RE: 40-65: Learning what I can - Don McDowell - 09-10-2015
Have who ever does the reline, use the Browning reamer from Elk Ridge (or what ever the subdivision of ptg is now).
About to begin experimenting with the 40-65 again, first up will be 2f OE around 58 grs and the lyman snover bullet. That snover bullet is fairly reliable in most rifles. Still have a small supply of 3f Express that we used exclusively in the 40-65, so I can always fall back on that if need be.
RE: 40-65: Learning what I can - Gunlaker - 09-10-2015
That sounds like a nice project. The .40-65 is an excellent cartridge. Shiloh is not transitioning away from the 45 degree reamer to my knowledge. They can go to a 7 degree angle if you specifically request it. I shoot one of their .40-65's with the standard chamber. I like it a lot although it will lead just a little. I recently did a chamber cast and can post a picture if you lke. It looks just like their .45-70 chambers with a 45 degree transition, maybe 0.050" freebore, and then a reasonably shallow leade. I didn't measure it, but if memory serves it's something like 2.5 degrees. I think Kurt knows.
I agree with starting with .45-70 brass.
If you want a bullet heavier than 400gr you might need a bit quicker than 1:16 twist.
I've found good accuracy with 58gr of FFFg Express and the Saeco #740 bullet, or 60.5gr of OE 1.5 and a 400gr Kidwell Money bullet.
Let us know how the project goes. I like the old Ballards. I have a Pacific in .40-82 but haven't got around to calling RMC for brass.
Chris.
RE: 40-65: Learning what I can - SgtDog0311 - 09-10-2015
Thanks gentlemen... I appreciate the input. I thought that Shiloh news might relate to someone's specific request. Nowone countradicted the post so was not sure.
I don't mind staying near 400gr but was hoping to get at least that much heft.
Be interested if anyone know what the Browning reamer from Elk Ridge has for a transition.
John
RE: 40-65: Learning what I can - Don McDowell - 09-11-2015
I have that drawing , but I think it's on a dead computer... You can call them and they'll send you the drawings. They have about 4 different 40-65 reamers.
RE: 40-65: Learning what I can - Don McDowell - 09-11-2015
Here's a couple drawings from Elk Ridge
[attachment=602][attachment=603]
RE: 40-65: Learning what I can - SgtDog0311 - 09-11-2015
Thanks for those Don. Appreciate you posting them. I think Kurt’s 44-75 Ballard reamer drawing was the first I spent any time trying to decipher. Thought it was a bottleneck at first.
Regarding Kurt’s, I’m wondering if I’m understanding it correctly to mean the .446 shown in ‘f’ to ‘e’ is the freebore. The chambercast he shows here http://historicshooting.com/mybb/showthread.php?tid=1369 seems to show that the transition used up that freebore but I’m not certain I’m reading it right.
On the two you posted I see enough difference in dimensions on case length and case mouth diameter to see why some say there are several 40-65 chambers, why some are tighter than others, and why some die sets might have to be altered for resizing.
If I'm reading yours right the Browning reamer gives you the 45 degree transition.
RE: 40-65: Learning what I can - Don McDowell - 09-11-2015
All I know is the Browning chamber shoots patched quite nicely, and works very well with greasers.
RE: 40-65: Learning what I can - SgtDog0311 - 09-11-2015
Well I'm the one asking for input so I appreciate all that's given. Owe myself a call today to PTG.
RE: 40-65: Learning what I can - SgtDog0311 - 09-12-2015
Gunlaker, I'd be much obliged if you posted your Shiloh chamber cast.
Been giving this some more thought.
Revisiting the chamber diagrams that Don posted – Didn’t catch it the first time around but there are two numbers posted where it shows the transition (12*-45-0) in that drawing. Not sure if I’m interpreting it correctly but it leaves me wondering if you can get their Browning reamer from PTG in more than one transition angle. Sent that question to PTG.
About accommodating available brass: I suppose an option would be to have a reamer ground to fit available Starline brass but I see right off I could outsmart myself by overthinking this. I could see that you might exclude reformed 45-70 since the chamber could possibly be too tight to allow oversize cast with the thicker case wall of a reformed 45-70 case. I have a friend with a Rolling Block who has exactly that problem. To use the 45-70 he’d likely have to shoot a smaller diameter paper patch whereas his Starline accommodates a .001 or .002 oversize GG. Starline is a little short though, so he is exposing the grease groove. The 45-70 being a little longer I could see myself wishing for even a couple more grains of powder capacity down the road.
Freebore: As yet I haven't fastened on the bullet style so not sure if freebore is preferable. I’m thinking with a 3.5 transition that freebore would be of little advantage unless it allows forward seating for greater case capacity.
Probably ought to start out by selecting a bullet so better give TJs a call and see what the bore and groove diameter is of his 40 caliber liners. Thinking Creedmoor or Money in about 400gr would be good for a 16 twist.
Caution me if I'm going down a dumb path anywhere.