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Recovered 2-diameter PPB.
03-04-2020, 10:11 PM (This post was last modified: 03-04-2020 10:14 PM by Distant Thunder.)
Post: #1
Recovered 2-diameter PPB.
Others have asked and I have often wondered what happens when one of these 2-diameter bullets is fired. What happens to the transition between the groove diameter base and the bore diameter shank.

My .40-65 2-D PPB has just a sharp step at this transition so it was even more interesting to see what it looks like.

First the as cast and after patching bullets. It starts out at 1.250" long and .394" and .402" diameter. From nose tip to the diameter transition line is .760"

   


Then the one I found in the melted snow bank earlier today. After recovering it is 1.217" long, .4065" diameter for the length of the engraved shank. Just a faint line remains of the step. It measures .750" from the nose tip to the line (step).

   

This bullet is currently shooting into 1 MOA 10-shot groups at 200 meters and that repeatable accuracy. I know a few people who laugh at the 2-Diameter PPB idea, but they do work.

Jim Kluskens
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03-05-2020, 12:47 AM
Post: #2
RE: Recovered 2-diameter PPB.
Thats a good looking bullet

A wise man can always be found alone. A weak man can always be found in a crowd.
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03-05-2020, 10:03 AM
Post: #3
RE: Recovered 2-diameter PPB.
Don,

There are some strict traditionalist that really get upset over the use of 2-Diameter Paper Patch Bullets (2-D PPB). I understand wanting to follow tradition, but I don't understand not letting others do it their way. Be an advocate for your way, but don't badmouth the other shooter's bullets. UNLESS they're shooting grease groove, then the gloves are off! Big Grin

With the 2-D PPB what comes out the muzzle is not significantly different than it is with the more "traditional" straight sided bore diameter PPB that the ODG used. That bullet I recovered is proof of that. With the 2-D PPB it is possible to get a very good level of accuracy from a rifle that is not chambered for PPB.

In my .40-65 with it's .400" long freebore I can't imagine a straight sided bore diameter PPB working well at all. With a 2-D PPB designed to fit the chamber of my rifle it shoots extremely well. And I don't have to size my case necks at all.

If that rifle had a faster twist, it's a 1 in 18, I would be interested in how far a longer, heavier 2-D PPB could be effective. You have a .40-90 SBN that you shoot your 2-D PPB bullets in, right? That would be a interesting long range rifle. What is the ROT in that one. To get a bullet a bit over 1.4" long it would require a 15-twist or better yet a 14.5 twist. I think it would be possible to push a 430-450 grain .40 caliber bullet with enough velocity to do well at 1000 yards, maybe very well and I don't think the case has to be overly huge to be it done. 70 to 75 grains of powder seems to be a sweet spot in .40 caliber. Iy might be possible in a .40-65 case.

My little .40 caliber 382 grain 2-D PPB has competed well against the .45s out to 600 yards. I know others have built fast twist .40s for long-range shooting, but is anyone competing successfully on a regular basis with a .40? With PPB?

I'm hoping some day to give it a try with a .44 caliber and PPB, maybe 2-D PPB, but I don't know if funds or time will be there to try a .40 caliber, though it is an interesting thought.

Anyway, my point here is that in actual shooting there isn't any difference in the 2-D and the more traditional sided bore diameter PPB. We 2-D shooters shouldn't have to hide what we're using! Confused

Jim Kluskens
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03-05-2020, 11:15 AM
Post: #4
RE: Recovered 2-diameter PPB.
Jim.
I think the ogive profile of that bullet has a lot to do with the accuracy as well as the DD to fit the standard GG chamber.
Dave Gullo from Buffalo arms called me one night when he started to make bullet moulds and asked me what I like to use for a PP bullet and I told him I like the original Sharps or Medford they are close and I sent him a picture of one and I said that this bullet will work close and as far as your sights will reach. Well he made some and I have one of his first .40 caliber blocks but he missed the profile a little but it still shot well. The shank diameter is a little on the small side for my .40-70 Shiloh but it's good in my tight .40-65 CPA but I will make a DD out of it to shoot in the Shiloh.

I cut the bullet below on the lathe and told Steve Brooks to make me a mould for the .44-90 BN but make it adjustable so I can see what length I can still get away with in the 19 ROT. And I also have this profile in a Swage die I had Richard Corbin (RCE) make for me.
That profile just plain shoots well and is very forgiving if you get it a little long for the bore twist. Yes it might need an extra twitch on the elevation knob over the sleek Ellipticals but it's more forgiving.

   

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03-05-2020, 12:02 PM
Post: #5
RE: Recovered 2-diameter PPB.
Kurt,

It's funny how you and I have arrived at the same conclusion on that bullet profile! And I think the ODG would approve!

Over the past 3 years of experimenting with the lower BC designs of the original bullets I have found this original Sharps design to be the most accurate PPB I have worked with. Also, as you said, it has been very easy to get excellent accuracy with that design. I have been telling other shooters who ask me about shooting PPB to start with this style of bullet and learn the other details of paper patching and then try any of the sleek nosed missiles that they want to afterwards. And if they are working with a grease groove chamber to give the 2-D PPB some thought.

I sent a drawing to KAL T & D of a .44 caliber bullet with the same nose shape as my .40-65 bullet and Rick is ready to cut the mold. I am just holding back until I have my rifle back from Shiloh before giving him the go ahead. It will be a straight sided bullet, but I have brass that has heavy enough necks that it won't need sizing to fit. While perhaps not the best in a GG chamber, a 2-D bullet would probably be better, I do believe that with the Shiloh standard chamber will work out well. My straight sided PPB bullets shoot very well in my Shiloh .45-90 with the same chamber design as my .44-77 will have. I will probably make a 2-D mold based on the same nose design and test that as well. It will be interesting to see if there is any difference.

I also plan to make or have made a 2-D .45 caliber bullet mold based on this design and then go back and revisit my old C. Sharps .45-70, the only rifle I have had that refuses to play nice with PPB of any kind. That one has an oversize chamber with about .200" freebore which is not the best for shooting any PPB I have tried so far. That's coming but not until I'm happy with how my .44-77 is shooting.

In the end I hope to show that the 2-D PPB is a workable option and get more people shooting their rifles as God intended they should be, with paper patch bullet, be they straight or 2-D. Big Grin

Jim Kluskens
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03-05-2020, 12:10 PM
Post: #6
RE: Recovered 2-diameter PPB.
Jim,

How did the larger diameter base shrink twice as much as the bore diameter section? I would have guessed that it would be the other way around.

Keep on h av'n fun!
MikeT
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03-05-2020, 02:12 PM
Post: #7
RE: Recovered 2-diameter PPB.
Mr. T,

I'm not sure that what you are saying is true or what you are seeing! There is some measuring guesstimation in my numbers, having to measure at an angle from the nose tip to the step. The groove diameter base is maybe .005-.010" shorter on the recovered bullet than a unfired one. When I compare the two bullets side by each the nose of the recovered bullet is noticeably shorter and it is difficult to see any difference in the base length. With calipers I can measure a very small difference in the base length, maybe. On the recover bullet the step is just a line and not something I can "feel" with the calipers.

The base diameter really doesn't bump up in diameter at all and indeed is groove +.001" as patched so it fits the freebore and case snug. All it really does is get engraved by the rifling.

Also interesting is that the wrap around gap in the patch, which was very narrow, can be seen one the recovered bullet as a very thin line and the taper crimp leaves a faint line at the base, but the 45 degree chamber stop lease nothing I can see!

   

Jim Kluskens
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03-05-2020, 03:44 PM
Post: #8
RE: Recovered 2-diameter PPB.
I am convinced using DD bullets is the best route I have taken to get stellar consistent accuracy from my Shiloh rifles. In particular the 40-70 SS, more time and moulds than any rifle I have ever owned.until a DD 45 cal mould from Steve Brooks I found on eBay for $100.00 . Fat .460” base fit my fired brass case mouth perfectly allowed 82 grs. Of O.E. and shoots amazing. Next I ordered a Steve Brooks .40 cal mould DD GG Money Bullet .410” base .400” to ogive . I can get over 80 grs of powder with no compression or a little with the 30-40 Krag stretched brass. I get very good accuracy regardless Jamison or RMC Everlasting brass.
My .40 cal DD PP Steve Brooks mould should be cut in the next week or so.

Mr DT, Mr BFD and Mr Mc Dowell for all of your time and knowledge helping me in significant ways. God Bless
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03-05-2020, 04:03 PM (This post was last modified: 03-05-2020 04:07 PM by Kurt.)
Post: #9
RE: Recovered 2-diameter PPB.
Jim,

I set up the swage press and ran a couple cast .44 bullets through the .445 swage die. The caliper shows .446 but they are .445. I didn't lock the knifes and it moved.
But I had Richard make this swage die as the original Metford bullet including the cup base. The cup base was as original to tuck the twisted tail into used back during that time period. I was going to cut the dimple off the nose punch when I had the lathe yet but never got it done. I guess I can put a carbine end mill in the mill and still get that done but it fly's just fine as it is but I have to use a patch and twist it and cut it off flush and tuck the rest into the cup so the skirts don't get damaged.
Those bullets were elliptical .434" in diameter for the .44-100 and they were cast with my L/T/A alloy @ 511 gr
The two on the right are the .44 sharps bullets from the Brooks adjustable mould.

       

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03-05-2020, 04:25 PM
Post: #10
RE: Recovered 2-diameter PPB.
Randy,

Happy to have had a part in helping you. There is nothing quite as fulfilling as getting one of these big bore single shots to shoot well, and consistently so, with paper patch bullets.

I am really chomping at the bit to give 2-D PPB a try in my .44-77! I will also work with straight sided PPB but I do believe that ultimately a 2-D PPB will be best. Waiting for the rifle to come and winter to end is driving me crazy!!! Neither of those to things should be too far off now.

Jim Kluskens
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