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Two long-range .45 caliber paper patch bullets.
08-24-2019, 11:59 PM
Post: #1
Two long-range .45 caliber paper patch bullets.
On another forum I mentioned that during the Friday practice at the recent Harris, MN 1000 yard match I had an opportunity to compare two very different .45 caliber paper patch bullets.

It started with me shooting some loads Brent Danielson and I loaded at the range to test his powder in my rifle. The load was my usual long-range load of 83.0 grains of 1 1/2 Swiss but with a different lot number than what I have been shooting. Everything else was the, primer, brass and bullet.

The loads we assembled, 20 rounds, were not shooting too well, but I was managing to keep them all on paper except one that missed low. There were 3 or 4 other shooters that were watching as I shot. When I finished I was somewhat disappointed that it hadn't gone better.

That's when Steve Farringer said that it would be interesting to see how a known good load shot as a comparison. So I grabbed a box of my loads that had everything the same except with 83.0 grains of my 1 1/2 Swiss. To be completely fair this is a load I have developed over time and it shoots very well. No load development was done with Brent's powder. We just loaded the same weight, 83.0 grains because that's what I use.

I laid back down and fired 3 shots, much to my relief they all went inside the 10-ring! I believe there was an X or two but the main point is they shot to center and within the 10-ring. Prefect elevation and windage.

In that same box were 10 paper patch bullets given to me by a friend to try when I had a chance. This was as good a chance as any.

My long range bullet is an elliptical bullet that has shot very well for me over the past 10 years. It holds up very well even when the winds get nasty. I think of it as the perfect long range bullet.

The ones my friend Ray gave me to try are rather blunt nose pour bullets with a short ogive and that little flat on the tip. Someone said, "Those look like muzzle loader bullets!", and they do. They look like a hunting bullets.

As I loaded the first one I commented that I'd probably have to come up some to hit paper, but how much? Well there's one way to find out, shoot it with the same sight setting and see.

So I lined up and when Mike said the conditions looked good I let her go. The target went down and I was in the scope after the shot and saw nothing to indicate a miss.

To my complete surprise and everybody else's too it came up a 10! Hmmm, that's odd! Well let's shoot another! I did and that one came up inside the 10-ring as well! Now my brain is working hard trying to understand how this can be. So I shot a 3rd one and said, "If that one is a 10 I'll be shocked!". Well, you know it came up inside the 10-ring too!

So now I'm left wondering just how much it really matters what kind of nose a bullet has, even at 1000 yards? I will say that this all happened late in the afternoon and the winds were fairly mild, but not calm. I do believe the more blunt designs are easier to get to shoot well, at least that has been my experience. Think of the Lyman 457125, what rifle doesn't shoot that bullet well!

So here are the two different bullets I shot, 3 of each, that resulted in six 10s in a row without ever touching the elevation.

   

The one on the left is Ray's bullet, the one on the right is mine. The load was the same for both. Ray's is 1.415" long and weighs 545 grains. My bullet is 1.430" long and weighs 532 grains.

I have to say that the fit of Ray's bullet in my bore was just nice and snug and there is a lot of guiding diameter there with the long shank so I'm not surprised they shot well, just surprised that they shot to the exact same POI at 1000 yards! And the same windage too!

Something to think about I guess, I sure don't understand it.

Jim Kluskens
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08-25-2019, 12:11 AM
Post: #2
RE: Two long-range .45 caliber paper patch bullets.
I think for the most part the more streamlined noses give a bit of advantage in windy conditions.
There is a lot to be said for that original postel bullet nose.

A wise man can always be found alone. A weak man can always be found in a crowd.
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08-25-2019, 10:08 AM
Post: #3
RE: Two long-range .45 caliber paper patch bullets.
That is interesting Jim, and surprising. I have tried a similar test with the BACO 443530E (elliptical ) and the BACO 446535M ( money ) at the ram line. I had to adjust my sights 1 minute higher for the money bullet. These bullets are almost the same in weight, but they use different paper as the diameters are different.

Chris.
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08-25-2019, 10:54 AM
Post: #4
RE: Two long-range .45 caliber paper patch bullets.
Chris,

I would have bet money that the blunter, heavier bullet would have had more drop at 1000 yards and more wind drift! That is the reason I'm not a betting man, I'm so often wrong!

These bullets are wrapped with different paper. Both papers are 100% cotton and are very close to the same thickness. I'd have to pull the paper off of one of Ray's bullets to check it. I know he has given me some to try and I have used it on my elliptical bullet and it shot just as well as my paper.

I have leaned toward higher BC bullets since Brent first got me pointed in the right direction with ppb back in 2009. Then about 4 years ago I developed a silhouette bullet for my 18-twist .40-65. Being limited to 1.200+ a bit in that twist and wanting to have as much weight as possible for the rams I went with a ODG round nose design. That bullet has worked very out to 600 yards in silhouette and mid-range matches. It has given me new respect for those older designs, they work and they work well.

I no longer think a long range bullet has to be some pointy, super slick design to work. I'm not planning on changing from my elliptical any time soon, but I wouldn't turn away from a round nose that shot with good accuracy either.

I think that next year when I go to Harris I'm going to bring two extra rifles with me to try at 1000 yards during the Friday practice shooting, one will be my soon to be new .44-77 and the other will be my .40-65 and both will be shooting an ODG round nose design. That's if everything goes according to plan, which isn't always the case. Should be interesting and fun as heck!

Jim Kluskens
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08-25-2019, 11:16 AM
Post: #5
RE: Two long-range .45 caliber paper patch bullets.
I have a bullet that is very similar to Ray's. It sometimes shoots real well to 1000 and sometimes not so much. But I'm thinking the biggest problem I have with it is the diameter. It drops at .444 and needs a thicker paper, I think the problem with the reliability problem is more a result of the paper thickness. I keep thinking about revisiting that bullet, but I have others that work and work well, so I figure if it ain't broke don't fix it. Smile

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08-25-2019, 08:20 PM
Post: #6
RE: Two long-range .45 caliber paper patch bullets.
Jim that is interesting stuff for sure, and definitely not what I'd expect. What percentage of your long range bullet is nose, if you don't mind me asking?

Chris.
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08-25-2019, 08:50 PM
Post: #7
RE: Two long-range .45 caliber paper patch bullets.
Chris,

I believe I made that mold somewhere around 2008 or 2009 and I have altered it in someway a few times since then. The last thing I did was in 2017 when I shortened it from the original length of 1.460" to 1.435". Since then it has shot like nothing else I've ever work with, it is amazingly accurate. So over time the exact dimensions have been kind of "muddied" a bit.

I just measure one because I really couldn't have answered your question if I hadn't, I flat out didn't know. So the OAL is 1.435" the shank is .685" long which leave the nose at .750". The answer then is 52%. I did not realize the nose was so long! No matter, it shoots great.

Jim Kluskens
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08-25-2019, 09:29 PM (This post was last modified: 08-25-2019 09:30 PM by Kurt.)
Post: #8
RE: Two long-range .45 caliber paper patch bullets.
Jim.
I use almost two identical bullets. I had Paul Jones take the money bullet design and make it a little blunter, I can't remember if it was a .230" but close.
And bullet #2-6 in the wad/alloy test is a bullet I really like I had Corbin make a swage die for it.
Both bullets will reach the 1K in fine shape.
I used that top bullet at the Q this year.
   
   

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08-26-2019, 09:30 AM
Post: #9
RE: Two long-range .45 caliber paper patch bullets.
(08-25-2019 08:50 PM)Distant Thunder Wrote:  Chris,

I believe I made that mold somewhere around 2008 or 2009 and I have altered it in someway a few times since then. The last thing I did was in 2017 when I shortened it from the original length of 1.460" to 1.435". Since then it has shot like nothing else I've ever work with, it is amazingly accurate. So over time the exact dimensions have been kind of "muddied" a bit.

I just measure one because I really couldn't have answered your question if I hadn't, I flat out didn't know. So the OAL is 1.435" the shank is .685" long which leave the nose at .750". The answer then is 52%. I did not realize the nose was so long! No matter, it shoots great.

That is interesting to hear, especially the short length. I think I remember Zack T talking about using bullets a little shorter than what most use too. I think that's the sort of thing that can only be learned after having shot a lot of long range in tricky conditions. I will keep that in mind! Thank you very much.

Chris.
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08-26-2019, 09:04 PM
Post: #10
RE: Two long-range .45 caliber paper patch bullets.
I have come to believe a somewhat shorter bullet that is not too slender in the nose results in an increased stability that is an advantage when it is being slapped around by gusty, shifting winds and especially the quartering headwinds that can really hurt some bullets. The little bit of weight I give up is worth the tradeoff.

I have also fine tuned my alloy to suit this style of bullet and the 83.0 grains of 1 1/2 Swiss I push it with (1300 +/- fps). My current alloy is 17-1 with a small amount antimony added for increased toughness. The results is a bit softer and heavier bullet that resist nose slumping and helps make this a very accurate bullet/load.

It would not surprise me at all that Zach T. would have arrived at the same conclusion!

Jim Kluskens
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